Zone VI modified Pentax Digital Spotmeter confusion

[Kino]

Ok, so today I tracked down a very good condition Zone IV modified Pentax Digital Spotmeter thinking I have finally found the ultimate spot meter for large format photography.

But...

In true typical bass-ackwards fashion, I then begin researching the actual meter, searching for the "official" user's manual (which I have yet to locate) and ran across the Paul Rutzi blog posting that "debunks" the supposed gains of this modification.

http://zonevi.dk/junk/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Paul-Butzi-Zone-VI-Meter-Modifications-Reprised.pdf

Don't get me wrong, the meter is great; everything functions fine (as far as I can tell compared to other meters), the form factor and ease of use still have me happy, but I am kind of mystified by this article.

Was it marketing hype or was there actually anything to the modifications?

Also, the darned meter doesn't have an actual Zone chart on the lens barrel below the EV dial and it doesn't appear to have ever had one!

Can I just print one out and paste it on there? What about the size/scale of this strip?

Frustrating...

 

[BrianShaw]

Have you read Chris Crawford’s assessment?

Spotmeter Color Sensitivity

crawfordphotoschool.com

 

[GregY]

Ok, so today I tracked down a very good condition Zone IV modified Pentax Digital Spotmeter thinking I have finally found the ultimate spot meter for large format photography.

But...

In true typical bass-ackwards fashion, I then begin researching the actual meter, searching for the "official" user's manual (which I have yet to locate) and ran across the Paul Rutzi blog posting that "debunks" the supposed gains of this modification.

http://zonevi.dk/junk/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Paul-Butzi-Zone-VI-Meter-Modifications-Reprised.pdf

Don't get me wrong, the meter is great; everything functions fine (as far as I can tell compared to other meters), the form factor and ease of use still have me happy, but I am kind of mystified by this article.

Was it marketing hype or was there actually anything to the modifications?

Also, the darned meter doesn't have an actual Zone chart on the lens barrel below the EV dial and it doesn't appear to have ever had one!

Can I just print one out and paste it on there? What about the size/scale of this strip?

Frustrating...

You can print one out or buy a sticker off Etsy https://www.etsy.com/ca/listing/1314868212/pentax-digital-spot-meter-zone-vi
Modified or not, the Pentax digital spot meter is a great tool

 

[jeffreyg]

I have two of them and a couple of other Zone VI products purchased new very many years ago. At about that time I happened to be visiting a friend in Vermont and passed through the town it was supposed to be in. We stopped at the general store and asked where it was located. The clerk laughed and said alot of people ask that but the address was only a mail drop there was no Zone VI shop. Fred Picker may have lived there and farmed out the fabrication of the products he sold. Just a mail order business.

All the things I bought from them still work perfectly.

 

[brian steinberger]

A simple white sticker cut to size and a thin sharpie works great. That’s all I’ve ever done.

 

[dpurdy]

My anecdotal experience is that I've used the pentax spot meter since before they made a digital one. I got a new digital one many years ago and it worked great. then I saw someone selling one on Craig's list for so cheap I had to buy it and it was Z6 modified and seemingly brand new. I tested it against my old stock version and they didn't quite agree. I took them to a camera repair place and they tested them on a known light source thing and found that the modified one was off and my old stock one was right. They said the modification was throwing it off a bit so they removed it and then my meters agreed and I use it to this day .. years later. I put a small piece of blond masking tape on mine and marked the zones.

 

[Alan9940]

I have two of them and a couple of other Zone VI products purchased new very many years ago. At about that time I happened to be visiting a friend in Vermont and passed through the town it was supposed to be in. We stopped at the general store and asked where it was located. The clerk laughed and said alot of people ask that but the address was only a mail drop there was no Zone VI shop. Fred Picker may have lived there and farmed out the fabrication of the products he sold. Just a mail order business.

All the things I bought from them still work perfectly.

In the early years, the Zone VI business was run out of Lil's (can't remember her last name) house and, yes, it was always a mail order business. In later years, the business moved to a location in Brattleboro where they did produce their Zone VI 4x5 camera. Eventually, the entire business was sold to Calumet.

 

[Kino]

Thanks everyone. I will rig a zone chart.

Again, the responses confirm there is still no consensus on the value of the modification, but it should be fine if I make it my main meter and adjust everything else accordingly.

Guess I should have realized this from the outset...

 

[BrianShaw]

"No consensus" is almost the epitome of an understatement. I recall when they were being sole new and there was seemingly no consensus then either.

A friend of mine was an Ansel and Picker devotee, at the same time (which seems unlikey). She did quite well with her gear and the film of the day. I muddled along using different gear and film with wht I consider decent results. I always looked longingly at the Zone VI catalogues, and read everything Fred had to write, but it just never quite resonated with me. Nothing seemed wrong, though.

In the recent times, this discussion exhibits relion-like tendencies. That's why I value discussions like Crawford's over some of the forum chatter opinions. I hope you read it. I had not seen (or remember seeing) the Butzi article and look forward to reading it, if for no other reason as to understand another long-ago opinion. Or is it "long-ago"?; I don't see a date on it.

The real test, of course, is with your film and your camera and your meter; does it produe the results you expect and desire. But you know that...

Enjoy!

EDIT: Catalogue descrition of the modifications:

 

[Alan9940]

I have two Zone VI modified meters as well as others. I vaguely remember some tests revealing that meter A responded to various colors differently than meter B, and that the Zone VI modified meter was more linear but I never tested that for myself. A lot of folks criticized the Zone VI meter because it was calibrated to the film Fred used at the time--Tri-X. Whatever...

IMO, if you test your materials and understand how your meter responds it really doesn't matter which meter one uses.

 

[DREW WILEY]

The debate occurs even among Hollywood cinematographers. I distinctly prefer the unmodified kind, especially in relation to non-skewed readings for color photography. Richard Ritter can still service the modified ones, but those are all getting old and have internal filter additions which fade over time. And yes, they were standardized to good ole Triassic-X film stock under the whim of good ole Fred, so might read slightly different with respect to the spectal sensitivity of other pan films, not to mention Ortho or Orthopan films.

Those stick-on Zone labels are otherwise utterly redundant. At a mere glance, one can simply count how many primary marks there are above or below the central midpoint triangle. Is it really all that difficult to subtract 2 from 5, or 3 from 5? Besides, the IRE scale on the original form digital spotmeter also has IRE scale boundaries clearly marked, giving a good approximation of common reproduction range.

Due to the original unmodified meters being designed for highly predictable TV, video, and movie usage, and not just general photography, they are tightly matched to distinct industry standards. The readings also identically match the Minolta Spotmeter F, and perhaps certain others. And I'm talking about full linear response, not just the central reading.

About once a decade, if any one of my meters started to read slightly different from the others, I'd send it off for recalibration at Quality Light Metric near Hollywood (now unfortunately retired). Alas, those rare service cases were usually accompanied by something stupid I'd done, like accidentally dropping the meter in icy water when hopping across some mountain stream, mandating internal cleaning. Now I employ a reliable clasp holding them to the tripod or camera bag.

 

[GregY]

I have two of them and a couple of other Zone VI products purchased new very many years ago. At about that time I happened to be visiting a friend in Vermont and passed through the town it was supposed to be in. We stopped at the general store and asked where it was located. The clerk laughed and said alot of people ask that but the address was only a mail drop there was no Zone VI shop. Fred Picker may have lived there and farmed out the fabrication of the products he sold. Just a mail order business.

All the things I bought from them still work perfectly.

It was always a mail-order business. I imagine they'd have gone broke as a brick & mortar business in small town Vermont.....

 

[DREW WILEY]

If someone for some reasons wants to skew or fine tune the spectral response of the Pentax meter, all they need to do is screw on the appropriate glass filter or filters to the front thread. That way, it's easily reversible. I screw on collapsible rubber lens shades to mine - again, a more obvious approach to dealing with potential internal flare, just like with any camera lens.

Fred Picker was quite a character, almost like an old time patent medicine wagon salesman. Not every product was great. But I too have several prized Z VI devices still working. And I sure miss his Brilliant Bromide graded paper, one of the best ever.

 

[Steve Goldstein]

If someone for some reasons wants to skew or fine tune the spectral response of the Pentax meter, all they need to do is screw on the appropriate glass filter or filters to the front thread. That way, it's easily reversible. I screw on collapsible rubber lens shades to mine - again, a more obvious approach to dealing with potential internal flare, just like with any camera lens.

I keep a B+W 486 UV-IR cut filter on my non-Zone-VI Pentax digital. I believe this filter accomplishes at least some of what Picker's mods were intended to provide. I could be wrong, but my negatives always seem properly exposed.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I do not have Zone VI experience. For the Pentax Digital Spot meter, once you have your reading, use the setting [straight reading] to set a lens and then read the EV setting from the lens for Zone or filter corrections. The Pentax Digital Spot meter is set up for ISO 100 by design and if one is using any other film speed, the EV corrections on the Pentax Digital Spot meter will be incorrect. I learned this at Alan Ross' classes in Yosemite.

Also I was advised by Alan when I purchased the Pentax Digital Spot meter to send it to a lab and have the Pentax Digital Spot meter calibrated to a standard light source.

 

[BrianShaw]

I do not have Zone VI experience. For the Pentax Digital Spot meter, once you have your reading, use the setting [straight reading] to set a lens and then read the EV setting from the lens for Zone or filter corrections. The Pentax Digital Spot meter is set up for ISO 100 by design and if one is using any other film speed, the EV corrections on the Pentax Digital Spot meter will be incorrect. I learned this at Alan Ross' classes in Yosemite.

Also I was advised by Alan when I purchased the Pentax Digital Spot meter to send it to a lab and have the Pentax Digital Spot meter calibrated to a standard light source.

You don't set the film speed of the film you are using on the Pentax digital spotmeter calculator dial before you start measuring?

Or did you intend to write, "use the setting [straight reading] to set the calculator dial, using your film's box speed or personal alternative, and then read the EV setting, or equivalent shutter spped/aperture, from the calculator dial for Zone or filter corrections to set your camera."

I'm assuming that @Kino already knows how to use the meter, or can look up the operating manual.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Sirius appears to be making a very incorrect claim. People staking their careers on proper metering have used Pentax meters for decades in relation to all kinds of film and film speeds. I have no idea what Alan Ross might or might not have said; but as reminisced by Sirius, it's untenable. Perhaps Alan was referring to the modified Zone VI model; but even that wouldn't make sense. You can reliably use these for any speed film you want. The basic EV readout, combined with rotating dial, is about as intuitive and easy as it gets.

Interpreting those results is of course a more complex topic. Where do you want your shadow readings placed on the scale, your highlights and midtones, etc. Does there need to be a reciprocity correction for long exposure?
Is a filter factor involved? And so forth. New Pentax meters were already factory calibrated to a precise industry standard. There would be no reason to recalibrate one unless it were old and well used. When I got a bargain price on a barely used one a few years ago, I simply brought one of my other ones along to double the one I was intending to purchase. They read identical. So again, what did Alan actually mean?; is/was he any kind of authority on this topic who allegedly knows something the people who actually repair and calibrate these don't? I doubt it. Or again, did he have just the modified ZVI version in mind, with their acknowledged non-factory quirks?

I still have my very first Pentax digital spotmeter (unmodified), which I purchased nearly 50 years ago. And it still reads correctly! I've had it re-calibrated only once during that whole time, and it was for sake of only a 1/3 EV error
after 25 yrs of hard use. It's taken so much torture over the decades in severe terrain and weather that I have it held together with electrical tape; but it's now comfortable in my meter "retirement home" drawer. I have three other ones, including an almost completely unused one which I insert a battery into only when I want to check the others. The reading consistency of these Pentax meters is remarkable.

 

[Kodachromeguy]

Fred Picker was quite a character, almost like an old time patent medicine wagon salesman. Not every product was great. But I too have several prized Z VI devices still working. And I sure miss his Brilliant Bromide graded paper, one of the best ever.

Yup, good old Fred, often known as Fred Pricker. And he sometimes refused to honor his "lifetime" warranties.

I agree that the Brilliant paper was superb. Getting ready to move, I opened boxes of prints I made in the 1980s on Brilliant, and they still glow with tones.

 

[BrianShaw]

@DREW WILEY, I really don’t want to write on Steve’s behalf, or Alan’s either, but I think he forgot the assumptions to that “methodology”.

IF using ISO 100 film at box speed, OR IF using a personal EI of 100, AND is using a camera with EV interlock, THEN the digitally displayed value can be set on the lens for a “ZONE V” exposure… or adjusted accordingly for whatever zone one wants to use.

That also works with Sekonic L-558, etc, spotmeters. It’s a very limited capability shortcut.

Failing to mention those conditions and name-dropping don’t help bolster an incomplete thought.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Well, there are different schools of Zonies. Alan is well known for his excellent shadow control in printing; but I dare say that I shot and printed almost exclusively chrome film for my first 20 years, which is far more demanding of precise exposure than any iteration of the Zone System. And otherwise, I've worked with black and white films all the way from ASA 2 to 3200. I'm quite familiar with the pros and cons of the main ZS religions as well; and they do have their lingo issues. Maybe someone needs to publish a basic Zone to English Dictionary.

 

[BrianShaw]

That’s all fine and interesting, but not the subject at the moment. Apparently Alan was pointing out a shortcut use of the Pentax Digital Spotmeter EV value, that is displayed in the viewfinder, in a very constrained situation.

 

[Chan Tran]

The Pentax spotmeter either the analog or digital version only give you 1 reading which I would call LV or EV @ ISO 100. You can use the dial to figure out the rest or you can do it in your head.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Much ado about nothing. One more reason why the first thing I did when I purchased a barely used meter was to tear the silly Zone scale label off of it, which the previous owner had attached. It was one of those scenarios when somebody went out and bought a new Sinar 8X10, some new filmholders, and a new meter for sake of a workshop,
then never afterwards used any of it. I wonder what they did with the mandatory Stetson cowboy hat.

 

[BrianShaw]

The Pentax spotmeter either the analog or digital version only give you 1 reading which I would call LV or EV @ ISO 100. You can use the dial to figure out the rest or you can do it in your head.

Exactly. At ISO 100 the readout really is the EV. At other ISO, it’s LV. But that’s a totally separate religious debate.

 

[Patrick Robert James]

Kino, I made some zone scales for the Pentax Digital when a friend gave me one. PM me your address and I’ll send you one.