110/16mm Camera Image Quality

[Huss]

Is this thread the most active one on Photrio? Anyone see the irony in that?

 

[Huss]

Rollei A110, and not advancing the film properly. User error..

 

[Huss]

Rollei A110

 

[Cholentpot]

Is this thread the most active one on Photrio? Anyone see the irony in that?

Because we're going out and shooting and posting the results! How many other threads aside from maybe the half-frame thread has people doing that?

 

[Bronson Dugnutt]

It's a very compelling format especially when paired with modern films & digitization techniques. It'll never happen, but you could imagine a bold camera manufacturer taking the guts out of a micro four-thirds body and adding a 16mm/110 film transport; same for APS-C/half-frame. On that topic, is anyone aware of a half-frame camera that would be capable of exposing the full panoramic width of 16mm film?

My olympus fv and canon demi both have transports of the first type, which isn't ideal for 16mm panoramas. You can just use a regular 35mm camera for this... but I want a half-frame damnit

I'm halfway through a 25ft roll of Double 8mm in my Bell & Howell (Wollensak 8 Model 53). I don't have the means to cleanly split the film or scan it all intact so I'll probably opt for some ~10x14mm 'octariptych' stills.

 

[Cholentpot]

It's a very compelling format especially when paired with modern films & digitization techniques. It'll never happen, but you could imagine a bold camera manufacturer taking the guts out of a micro four-thirds body and adding a 16mm/110 film transport; same for APS-C/half-frame. On that topic, is anyone aware of a half-frame camera that would be capable of exposing the full panoramic width of 16mm film?

View attachment 308507
My olympus fv and canon demi both have transports of the first type, which isn't ideal for 16mm panoramas. You can just use a regular 35mm camera for this... but I want a half-frame damnit

I'm halfway through a 25ft roll of Double 8mm in my Bell & Howell (Wollensak 8 Model 53). I don't have the means to cleanly split the film or scan it all intact so I'll probably opt for some ~10x14mm 'octariptych' stills.

There's a camera that transports the film vertically. Konica AA-35 I think.

Also, I use of of them cheap panoramic cameras that just has a crop mask for 35mm and shoot 16mm in it. Works great.

 

[Bronson Dugnutt]

There's a camera that transports the film vertically. Konica AA-35 I think.

Also, I use of of them cheap panoramic cameras that just has a crop mask for 35mm and shoot 16mm in it. Works great.

Yet another slick half-frame. After thinking about this for 5 more seconds its obvious why there isn't a half-frame with that gate/advance orientation: it'd never be able to properly expose a proper half-frame onto 35mm film.

My solution for 16mm panos in 35mm was to add some 'bumpers' to a 35mm cassette to maintain some sort of accurate alignment as the film is advanced.

Edit: add 120 adapter end pieces from a chopped up 120 reel (also useful as a tool to wind film into the cart) and go ham.

 

[Cholentpot]

Yet another slick half-frame. After thinking about this for 5 more seconds its obvious why there isn't a half-frame with that gate/advance orientation: it'd never be able to properly expose a proper half-frame onto 35mm film.

My solution for 16mm panos in 35mm was to add some 'bumpers' to a 35mm cassette to maintain some sort of accurate alignment as the film is advanced.

View attachment 308510

Edit: add 120 adapter end pieces from a chopped up 120 reel (also useful as a tool to wind film into the cart) and go ham.

I've done this, and with a 3D printed 120 to 16mm reel.

 

[ciniframe]

Sorry but I’m slow. Do you mean that you are exposing the whole 16mm film in a half frame camera? So, the frame would be 16x18mm, perfs included if the film has perfs?
I’ll need to see if my Olympus Pen vf camera can advance film without the sprocket holes. Have a notion the answer is no. Would be neat though, the 28mm f3.5 lens and 4 speed shutter are all manual and the lens focuses to just under 2 feet by scale.

 

[Bronson Dugnutt]

24x16mm was the half-frame scenario I was wondering about, but it isn't feasible. You can get 36x16mm pano frames from full-frame cameras in any case.

 

[xkaes]

On that topic, is anyone aware of a half-frame camera that would be capable of exposing the full panoramic width of 16mm film?

I don't know what you mean by a "half-frame" camera, but there is a camera that produces 10x50mm panorama shots on 16mm film -- 120° angle of view -- the Viscawide:

http://www.subclub.org/shop/visca.htm

With a typical half-frame 35mm camera, you can make panoramas up to 24mm wide -- just turn the camera on its side -- or use a vertical half-frame (there were many from the Ansco Memo to the Yashica Samurais), so you can make a 10x24mm panorama by cropping. No need for 16mm film.

Your other option is a full-frame 35mm camera with panoramas up to 36mm wide -- such as 10x36mm, by cropping.

There's no need to make strange modifications -- just crop the negtive or get a Viscawide (and an enlarger that can handle a negative that wide).

 

[Bronson Dugnutt]

There's been discussion of panoramic exposures (including the viscawide) on 16mm stocks earlier in the thread, namely from @Cholentpot going 90mm wide. You seem a bit confused about the dimensions of half-frame panoramas though; the largest you can get is 18x16mm regardless of how you orient the camera.

The concept isn't limited to 16mm film either.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Bronson, I'm pretty sure @xkaes was saying "just crop" to get 16x24 pano out of your half frame camera. No sprockets, but hey, it's just like flipping the "panoramic" switch on a number 35 mm P&S cameras -- just masks the top and bottom of both frame gate and viewfinder.

 

[Huss]

Bronson, I'm pretty sure @xkaes was saying "just crop" to get 16x24 pano out of your half frame camera. No sprockets, but hey, it's just like flipping the "panoramic" switch on a number 35 mm P&S cameras -- just masks the top and bottom of both frame gate and viewfinder.

The thing about those panoramic switches is they force you to 'see' in that format and there is no turning back after you take the pic. You cannot unmask the unexposed areas!
So while I used to make fun of them - just crop! - in actuality they do have a real purpose.

 

[Sergey Ko]

Lithuanian Autumn by Sergey Kozlov, on Flickr
Landscape taken with VISCAWIDE-16.
Sorry for quality - it was very old expired film.
The optical geometry from panoramic cameras (like this, or Horizon, or FT-2, or Widelux) are rather different from cropping images. It is due to projecting image to the cylinder. So the stitching of several frames with rotating camera is much closer to them.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Then again, the optical geometry of an X-pan, or 35 mm in a medium format camera (24x67 in my RB67, 24x85 or so in a 6x9 folder) is no different from "just cropping" -- but IMO knowing the film is narrower than the frame is enough to force you to see in the panoramic format. Just as when I put my Graflex 22 roll film back on my RB67, I "see" in square the same way I would with my Mamiya Six or Kodak Reflex II.

 

[Sergey Ko]

Yes,
Xpan, Fuji-TX, Bronica panoramic back & all forms of 6x12\6x18 with 120 film have the same geometry like any crop. But it was mentioned ViscaWide-16
Here is typical curve of cylinder focal plate of Russian FT-2:

Ligurian coast of Italy by Sergey Kozlov, on Flickr

 

[Bronson Dugnutt]

Excellent examples Sergey. A Viscawide is on my wish list, but one costs more than I'm willing to pay for another camera at the moment. It'd surely be fun to experiment by adapting a close-up lens. What a mess that would be... the images might be pretty wild though.

My photography deed for the day:

Unnecessary? Sure.
Unwieldy? A little.
35mm equivalent FOV? You betcha.

(Modified Sony VCL DH0758 0.7x wide converter on 40.5->52->58mm rings)

 

[Cholentpot]

Excellent examples Sergey. A Viscawide is on my wish list, but one costs more than I'm willing to pay for another camera at the moment. It'd surely be fun to experiment by adapting a close-up lens. What a mess that would be... the images might be pretty wild though.

My photography deed for the day:
View attachment 308581

Unnecessary? Sure.
Unwieldy? A little.
35mm equivalent FOV? You betcha.

(Modified Sony VCL DH0758 0.7x wide converter on 40.5->52->58mm rings)

Sweet. Let's see it next to an SLR for scale.

Lithuanian Autumn by Sergey Kozlov, on Flickr
Landscape taken with VISCAWIDE-16.
Sorry for quality - it was very old expired film.
The optical geometry from panoramic cameras (like this, or Horizon, or FT-2, or Widelux) are rather different from cropping images. It is due to projecting image to the cylinder. So the stitching of several frames with rotating camera is much closer to them.

Someone on this forum offered to sell their visca but they never got back to me. I hope they're ok.

 

[Bronson Dugnutt]

Sweet. Let's see it next to an SLR for scale.

This probably isn't a fair comparison but the F5 wouldn't fit in the frame

This type of afocal converter lens (and others like it) were made for various 'old' digital cameras and can usually be acquired very inexpensively. A 58mm rear thread means you can adapt it to lots of lenses if desired. No mechanical vignette appears until about 24mm on full-frame... enough for a ~17mm FOV in that scenario.

Edit: It might even go a bit wider if I cleaned up the hack job around the rear element. I had to melt away a plastic standoff ring around the rear element to attach a normal 58mm step-down ring. It is definitely obscuring a couple of millimeters of the element around the edge.

 

[Cholentpot]

This probably isn't a fair comparison but the F5 wouldn't fit in the frame

View attachment 308588

This type of afocal converter lens (and others like it) were made for various 'old' digital cameras and can usually be acquired very inexpensively. A 58mm rear thread means you can adapt it to lots of lenses if desired. No mechanical vignette appears until about 24mm on full-frame... enough for a ~17mm FOV in that scenario.

Edit: It might even go a bit wider if I cleaned up the hack job around the rear element. I had to melt away a plastic standoff ring around the rear element to attach a normal 58mm step-down ring. It is definitely obscuring a couple of millimeters of the element around the edge.

That's comically large for a tiny format. I'd still like one though.

 

[Bronson Dugnutt]

Minolta 110 Zoom SLR Mk II, +1 exposure comp.
Vision3 50D in a 110 cart (100 ISO), ECN-2
w/ 0.7x wide converter
Macro mode, @~35mm zoom, f4

The frame spacing was better on this roll for some reason. There was some misalignment near the end, but the first half had almost perfect registration. Expose, advance, add lens cap, shutter, advance, shutter, advance, remove cap, expose.

The converter does add a lot of utility to the wide end of the lens. When in macro mode it puts closest focus at the 25mm setting at ~1/2 inch and ~1 1/2ft at 65mm, very much compressed compared to the default configuration. It weighs about half as much as the camera body (250g vs 450g) so the balance actually isn't too bad.

 

[Cholentpot]

Minolta 110 Zoom SLR Mk II, +1 exposure comp.
Vision3 50D in a 110 cart (100 ISO), ECN-2
w/ 0.7x wide converter
Macro mode, @~35mm zoom, f4

View attachment 308628

The frame spacing was better on this roll for some reason. There was some misalignment near the end, but the first half had almost perfect registration. Expose, advance, add lens cap, shutter, advance, shutter, advance, remove cap, expose.

View attachment 308629

The converter does add a lot of utility to the wide end of the lens. When in macro mode it puts closest focus at the 25mm setting at ~1/2 inch and ~1 1/2ft at 65mm, very much compressed compared to the default configuration. It weighs about half as much as the camera body (250g vs 450g) so the balance actually isn't too bad.

You shoot 50D at 100? Does it need any compensation in development?

 

[Bronson Dugnutt]

This particular 110 film cart sets the camera to meter at 100. The +1 exposure compensation corrects for that, so it was exposed at the box speed of 50 ISO and processed normally. With a 100 and 400 speed cassette you can meter aperture priority at ISOs 25-1600 via the exposure comp dial.

Edit: Just about every description of this camera mentions it having no 'full manual' mode which is technically true I guess. It does provide a single mechanical 1/125s shutter setting, nominally for flash sync, but with the right film & filters you can still correctly expose in lots of situations even with a dead battery.

 

[xkaes]

You seem a bit confused about the dimensions of half-frame panoramas though; the largest you can get is 18x16mm regardless of how you orient the camera.

Last time I checked, my various 35mm half-frame cameras are either 17x24mm or 18x24mm. You can crop either to make 10x24mm, 12x24mm, 8x24mm, or whatever panoramic size fits your needs/subject. The 10x24 is, of course, only half as wide as the Viscawide, but you can use a much smaller enlarger.