A NEW ISO 200 COLOR NEGATIVE FILM FROM ADOX

[AgX]

Maybe me wanting them to be extremely transparent is unreasonable.

Well, some weeks ago you started a thread about Adox in which you were critical about that firm not employing pre-paid production of a product that to their saying was ready but not economic at current prices.

We discussed this in along thread. You were repeatedly advised to negotiate this issue with Adox and even make a respective offer as you or your firm alone already had a substantial need for that product.

But on repeated request on the outcome you only replied with "I don't owe anyone anything".

 

[haliderollei]

Well, some weeks ago you started a thread about Adox in which you were critical about that firm not employing pre-paid production of a product that to their saying was ready but not economic at current prices.

We discussed this in along thread. You were repeatedly advised to negotiate this issue with Adox and even make a respective offer as you or your firm alone already had a substantial need for that product.

But on repeated request on the outcome you only replied with "I don't owe anyone anything".

Not sure what point you are trying to prove here but that's ok. I wish Adox the best; Hope they'll bring out MCC sometime

 

[AgX]

Well, you were even not willing for transparency, on an issue you raised yourself. Then raising the issue of transparency at the one you criticized puts you into the glasshouse.

Not that we all never sat there...

 

[lantau]

I'm excited and don't mind waiting another month for Adox Helios. If it is indeed an inexpensive color film, and if it isn't too expensive to ship to the US, I would love to try it. It depends how low "low speed" actually is. If it's 25ISO I'd buy it, but if it's like the repurposed print film that FPP sells at under 2ISO I wouldn't use it. I have been wanting to try something around 25ISO anyway, so I hope that's around what the speed is.

They say the sun should be out. Which implies for hand held shots. I'd expect a sensitivity similar to CMS 20 II. Around iso12.

 

[haliderollei]

Well, you were even not willing for transparency, on an issue you raised yourself. Then raising the issue of transparency at the one you criticized puts you into the glasshouse.

Not that we all never sat there...

Thank you for pointing it out; I will say that I indeed have emailed them, and still waiting on a reply.

 

[AgX]

Thank you!

A manufacturer should be happy to be even approached for a risk-free way of earning money and at least send a respective reply.

 

[haliderollei]

Thank you!

A manufacturer should be happy to be even approached for a risk-free way of earning money and at least send a respective reply.

Ah; it's the Dutch directness I guess, sorry not sorry haha

 

[AgX]

Well, I know the dutch mentality and consider myself more direct...

And mentality varies throughout Germany.

 

[LeoniD]

Just like Silberra is doing

Silberra doesn't even use some old stock, it's just Kodak Aerocolor IV

 

[ADOX Fotoimpex]

I'm questioning the ability of Adox to produce any kind of real color film themselves; Mirko has said in a talk that it would take hundreds of millions and many engineers to come up with a film that might even compare to a Ferrania film.

Suddenly they have couplers, sensitizers and all the other jazz figured out? At least be honest if you've got a few vats of chemicals that you've got laying around and now are making some kind of film concoction and try to make some money out of it (fairly so, I want Adox to succeed); but at least be honest towards the people that are asking the questions. And maybe also let your most loyal darkroom printers know wether we will be seeing MCC/PWE paper anywhere in the upcoming 5 years.

We never claimed that we are at this point able to manufacture color film fully in house. In fact what we claimed is that HELIOS is from the COLOR MISSION series and it is very clear what´s the purpose of this "endavour" or "adventure" and this is to become capable in the future to manufacture a proper color film and by buying a roll you support us in this mainly financially. Anything released under the COLOR MISSION label are steps in this direction. We will not disclose all details but we can and will of course be frank about those informations which are of understandable interest to the potential buyer.
About Helios I stated three main technical aspects:

1) It is produced with a higher (not full) in house depth of manufacturing than COLOR MISSION I
2) It is a simplified color emulsion which could be manufactured in larger amounts and at a lower price
3) It is not as user-friendly as "regular" color film or COLOR MISSION I and some sacrifces will need to be made by the users BUT they can get high quality color images from this film if done so.

I also stated that we have much more of this film than we have from COLOR MISSION I and that we thus release it through the dealers and make it available worldwide as well as that we can finish this material (once all finishing machines are repaired) in all formats up to 4x5".

If we are able to keep financing the project and we make further success we will be releasing more COLOR MISSION and most likely each one will have a higher manufacturing depth and while we do so we learn. At the very end we will be hopefully "self-sustainable".
The last is to be understood as capable of making the respective dispersions/"emulsions", coating and finishing the film.
There are tremendous challenges even in the last part only (finishing).

HELIOS as it is is a one-time stock and it is unique. If we are to proceed this route with these color couplers a possible next candidate will have a higher speed (means changing the emulsions!) and we will be implementing on the fly QC so that we can correct a color shift during the coating and do not end up with a lot of material off specs.

We did underestimate the demand for COLOR MISSION I a lot. Of HELIOS we have enough to release 20 times more then of COLOR MISSION I.
Since it is not as user friendly as COLOR MISSION I and since we have 20 times more and because it has such a low speed that it can be stored indefinitely, we expect this film to be around for a long time (>4 years).

We are happy about anyone who feels like supporting us in this by buying HELIOS and creating nice images on it. Our promise holds up that we reinvest all profits into film R&D.
If it is absolutley necessary for anyone to know exactly what we did, when and with whom, in order to buy an attractively priced roll of color film, I suggest to ignore this stock and continue with other material.
We cannot and will not be releasing confidential informations about the manufacturing process, ingredients and cooperations. No manufacturer does this for good reasons.

 

[ADOX Fotoimpex]

Suddenly they have couplers, sensitizers and all the other jazz figured out?

Yes we do. On a theoretical level and yes we have most of the rare ingredients (at least the ones you listed). We also have expertise, know how and the full machine park from the beginning to the end. This separates us from most other companies who are running similar projects at present.
Putting it all together is a HUGE challenge. Its needs time (and I am writing this first!) and money. Continuous income stream to hire, train and keep people and implement extremely complicated process steps.
In the past I gave different numbers about the cost, differentiated if we are looking at a company entering this market from the outside (that´s the big number) or if one of the players like us who already acquired the know how and and all the expensive machinery is entering and "simply" tries to get it to use. It´s still difficult enough but a lower number. I think I gave the amount of people and labs and some costs for the silver or such. Its a rough guess anyways. Anyone can make his or her own estimation and then we see who was right

 

[pentaxuser]

Well it seems to me that ADOX has met the transparency test that haliderollei was applying. I am at a loss to know what else it can do short of revealing all the data on the film's manufacture which is surely asking too much

We have examples of companies saying almost nothing about their "new" products or at least nothing that really tells us anything and yet this brings about very little in the way of criticism in comparison

Just a pity that it is ADOX's misfortune to choose to release a colour film which these days with the state of colour film scarcity seems to act as a trigger for our emotions

pentaxuser

 

[Minolta93]

They say the sun should be out. Which implies for hand held shots. I'd expect a sensitivity similar to CMS 20 II. Around iso12.

If it is that low I may try a roll or two. I recently saw a man talking about using Kodachrome 25 and he explained how at 25ISO it was generally usable in the daytime, which is why the 25 keeps sticking in my head. At that speed I could make it work. I don't generally like to carry a tripod. But at half the speed it becomes a little harder.

Of HELIOS we have enough to release 20 times more then of COLOR MISSION I.

The prospect of actually having availability is the best part, though. So I'm still looking forward to it.

 

[flavio81]

Well it seems to me that ADOX has met the transparency test that haliderollei was applying.

This. ADOX the film company with the lowest corporate Dmin and base fog.

 

[flavio81]

About Helios I stated three main technical aspects:

Key points i extract, that I think are very relevant:

- Partly manufactured in-house

- Specifically designed for lower production costs: Sounds logical to me, if they have less layers, then it requires less coating passes = less time and expenses to coat a master rolll

- It will enable you to get "high-quality color images": This sounds exciting, considering that ADOX holds a high image quality standard for their B/W rolls.

- They have produced 20x the stock compared to Color Mission I

- Probably, the amount produced will enable Adox to sell it for 4 years or more, despite being a one-off production run.

- "Can be stored indefinitely": Yay!

- Profits are going straight into R&D

 

[Huss]

If it is that low I may try a roll or two. I recently saw a man talking about using Kodachrome 25 and he explained how at 25ISO it was generally usable in the daytime, which is why the 25 keeps sticking in my head. At that speed I could make it work. I don't generally like to carry a tripod. But at half the speed it becomes a little harder.



The prospect of actually having availability is the best part, though. So I'm still looking forward to it.

Shooting low ISO speed film w/o a tripod is easy if it is sunny!

I just shot ISO 1.6 film. Using Sunny F16 = 1/60 sec @ f2.8

 

[brbo]

As much as I want to get excited about Helios... I just can't see me using it. Wide open gets very old very quickly. Tripods, filters...

I hope I'm the only one thinking like that and all the kids go for Helios and leave more of Color Mission I for me.

 

[halfaman]

Let's see how much Helios 4x5" sheets cost...

I don't mind to use slow film in my Wista as long as the colors I get are good.

 

[Agulliver]

Shooting low ISO speed film w/o a tripod is easy if it is sunny!

I just shot ISO 1.6 film. Using Sunny F16 = 1/60 sec @ f2.8

I've certainly shot 2ASA glass plates at f4.5 at 1/10 and 1/25 second handheld. OK so 1/10s requires steady hands or a tree/lamp post/wall to brace against but it can be done. Anything faster than 2ASA and you're totally able to shoot in bright sunlight. When you're looking at 1/25s and a little faster, you're talking about shutter speeds comparable to vintage box cameras and suchlike. Totally possible to hand hold.

We don't yet know the speed of the new Adox film but "very low" does suggest 12ISO or lower. But that's fine with me. I'm more and more thinking that I will buy some.

 

[AgX]

It is a bit more complicated. We have to differenciate whether one uses a very low ISO film out of necessity or because one choses it for its specific emulsion features, as typically low graininess ad high resolution. If one needs the high resolution then higher requirements apply to camera steadiness.

 

[flavio81]

It is a bit more complicated. We have to differenciate whether one uses a very low ISO film out of necessity or because one choses it for its specific emulsion features, as typically low graininess ad high resolution. If one needs the high resolution then higher requirements apply to camera steadiness.

However if one needs high resolution, one ought to be using a tripod, no matter what the film sensitivity is.

I personally think that, just as a very fast film (i.e. iso 1600) opens door to many possibilities, a very slow film (like ISO 12) also opens the door to other possibilities like very long exposures at daytime with a ND filter.

ISO 25 would be a rather usable film IMO. This means an exposure of f2 at 1/250 on an overcast day, or f2 1/2000 on a sunny day.

 

[Donald Qualls]

whether one uses a very low ISO film out of necessity or because one choses it for its specific emulsion features, as typically low graininess ad high resolution.

Or sometimes just the novelty factor, being able to use a large aperture in bright conditions, etc.

 

[halfaman]

COLOR MISSION HELIOS – ADOX • since 1860

m.adoxphoto.com

Not what I was expecting to see about Color Mission Helios... Samples photos look terrible. Is this the final announcement or something still cooking?

 

[LeoniD]

terrible

It's what we call "pizdets", not just "terrible". The only highres photo on their site isn't too bad tho, it can be color corrected

 

[halfaman]

The page has been removed so I guess it was a "work in progress"...