Age-fogged B&W materials: the definitive guide to working and succeeding with them

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David Lyga

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I am not going to live forever so I might as well allow others to benefit from my hard-won findings on the matter of ugly age-fogged B&W materials. I have written previously about this but this latest formula seems to be my best yet, by a substantial margin. I have a 'different' way of formulating such and, certainly, am not a chemist. But this does work: with film and, especially, with paper. Read, heed, and proceed to try this. It is cheap. I do not have photos for proof YET; hopefully, they will be posted within a week.

First, a bit about the theory part: It seems to me after years of experimentation that there is a 'trigger point' for hydroquinone that must be met, and ONLY met, with no extra help. What I am getting at here is this: Metol is the developer that strives to bring out threshold density, WHETHER THAT DENSITY MANIFESTS AS EITHER FOG OR EMERGING IMAGE DETAIL (the developer does not know the difference between the two!). And, as we know, hydroquinone is the developer which strives, at all costs, to augment contrast. Hydroquinone, alone, is bad as a developer: so slow, so painfully slow, as to seem worthless. However, a tiny bit of metol can act as a trigger to cause the hydroquinone, finally, to come to life IN A WAY WHICH DOES NOT APE THE SYNERGIZED EFFECT OF THE M/H COMBINATION. Since the amount of metol is so small, so small, so really small, the threshold density keeps getting suppressed despite the hydroquinone being allowed to come to life. That is about as clear a presentation as I can present to you.

Here is my formula that I now use for almost every B&W film and for all papers. Yes, it is that good, and cheap and simple to make. However, I am used to measuring things a bit differently than most, so you will have to accept that. I measure most dry chemicals by volume, so you will have to get an ACCURATE calibrated cylinder to measure small volumetric quantities. Not so difficult, right?

First you must make two solutions that you can draw from every time you mix my developer. Metol solution (keep airtight) (MS) is made this way;

2 mL of sodium sulfite, anhydr
1 mL metol
WTM 100 mL.

Of course, again, keep the MS airtight, like with any developer.

(Naturally, if you want to make a whole liter, multiply the quantities by ten, but the smaller volume is sufficient; I use thrown out tiny liquor bottles, easily found in filthy Philadelphia, and add tiny glass marbles to keep the volume to the rim.)

The second solution is restrainer solution (RS):

1 GRAM of benzotriazole
WTM 100 mL

The RS does NOT require being kept air-tight. The REASON why I WEIGH the BZ is because, in its history, it has come in different forms: feathers, large granules, powder. Thus, to assure accurate measurement, I simply take its mass, metrically.

Now that you have the critical two solutions, I present the FORMAL formula for all:

To make a small 100 mL quantity of STOCK solution:

3 mL sodium sulfite, anhydr
5 mL of MS
2 mL hydroquinone
6 mL sodium carbonate, mono (this is Arm& Hammer washing soda, sold in its most stable, packaged form: monohydrated; store brand is the same, if cheaper)
2 mL RS
WTM 100 mL

When you accurately measure in the calibrated cylinder, tap down slightly to get the powder flat; do not tap down hard, as if your life depended upon it.

How to use the formula: for use with either film or paper, mix from 1 part formula + 4 to 9 parts water, depending upon the material. I find that slower films, like Panatomic-X or Plus-X can use the more dilute
1+9 and that faster films, or TMY 100, need to be diluted less. Kodak TMX 3200 needs the FULL 1 + 4. But, first, a note on trying this out: do not be foolish and wasteful and just plain stupid by thinking that whole rolls or whole sheets are needed ‘to test’. If I had done this in the past years, I would be bankrupt by now. A 36 exposure roll of film lasts, for me, for 36 tests! Learn to cut off about one frame (keep the roll truly light-tight) and learn how to place that frame onto the film aperture gate (of a manual SLR) in the dark (use tape if you are afraid of the curtain eating it up). Then carefully close the back without moving the film. With paper, cut a piece about 1 or 2 inches square (3 or 4 cm) and target that on the easel to an important part of the picture, covering part of the paper with a coin in order to compare both fog and image quality. For developing this single frame, I use the old style film can: one frame fits perfectly, and add 10 mL of WORKING solution, cap it, then roll it in a water bath for the duration of development time. It is very important to know whether the film can is truly impervious to light. Otherwise, work in dark with a timer. The newer ones, even if black, are NOT light tight. Those made 30 to 40 years ago usually are. Do not assume, or you will spoil everything. Also IMPORTANT: for ALL B&W work I use 80 Fahr (26.7 C) solely because that is what is most comfortable to me and easiest to maintain. If you use colder, increase the development times a bit to compensate. For the tiny pieces of paper for testing, use tiny trays. (Dollar Store?) Make your costs for tests miniscule. I have always been frugal and never regretted it. In fact when Warren Buffet’s wife recently complained about the price of a cup of coffee, I did not laugh like so many jerks did, given her money; instead, I applauded her.

You are going to have to do many tests in order to get this right. But, my helpful indications follow:

First, how fogged is the material? If slightly fogged or even moderately fogged, you might be able to get away with normal development with dilute Farmer’s after fixation. Here is how I mix MY Farmer’s:

To make the BLEACH (B): 1 mL potassium ferricyanide in WTM 25 mL. To make the Farmer’s reducer(lasts about half an hour but depends upon strength), mix one part B to one part of (unused) paper strength fixer plus anywhere from two parts water to eighteen parts water. The stronger the fog, the less dilute the reducer needs to be. Mixed, it will not last too long but usually half an hour is OK. I use percentages, because they are easier for me to understand: The first is 1+1+2 = 50% and the second is 1+1+18 = 10%.

To remove this small amount of fog, simply place the film or paper (after fixation) into your choice of diluted Farmer’s. That said, now let’s assume that you need my formula for combatting serious age-fog.

First, film: Let’s take a worse-case scenario here: Kodak TMZ 3200 film that has been sitting around for twenty years or so. WOW what FOG!!! Barely an image visible with normal development. Now, do this: shoot a frame at, say, not at its box speed of EI 800 but, instead, at EI 12, a full six steps more exposure. Then use my formula (1+4) for eight minutes (remember I am 80 Fahr) and see what you get. If you get a reasonable image, slightly overexposed, with little to moderate fog with great contrast, you have succeeded. Simply use the Farmer’s (maybe 20%) to make that negative clear and pristine. Examine the image detail and shadow detail and make your next experiment to remove the noticed faults. Maybe give less, more exposure and/or more/less development.

Sorry, this is what you have to do in order to target the supreme success, but it is worth it. I have Multi-contrast Ilford paper which is so age-fogged that it is YELLOWED on the reverse, like old newspaper!!! It is unbelievable what I get done with this developer and I will show you when I get a chance to take and upload photos in about one week. For paper, I usually use 1 part formula + 4 parts water and develop for from 2 to 4 minutes. You have to examine the fog level under that coin that you placed upon the paper and, if the fog is rather low (less than 50%) you might be able save the print with Farmer’s.

In summation, this is a race between gaining adequate contrast (difficult with age-fogged materials) and subduing age-fog. The more development the more contrast but, also, the more fog. If you are not prepared to suffer, expend time (not money) and accurately note your findings for welcome repetition, you are not prepared to read this posting again for a better understanding. - David Lyga
 

pentaxuser

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Welcome back David to you and your contributions, assuming it isn't me who has not been paying attention and you have been back for a while

pentaxuser
 

MattKing

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Yes David - welcome back.
I think you have other threads on related subjects, so I will check to see if we can cross-reference them here.
 

koraks

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Good to see you around @David Lyga!

Since the amount of metol is so small, so small, so really small, the threshold density keeps getting suppressed despite the hydroquinone being allowed to come to life. That is about as clear a presentation as I can present to you.

I'm not a chemist either, but intuitively, this sort of seems to make sense.
 

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Long time, no hear. Welcome back and thank you for your detail photographic research.
 

Sirius Glass

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Monitors please put a pin in this thread so it will be easier to find.
 

MattKing

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Monitors please put a pin in this thread so it will be easier to find.

We are considering an edit of the "Sticky" section.
The thread has the advantage of a title that should be easy to search for, although an edit that puts "Age-fogged B&W materials" at the beginning might aid with that.
 

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Melvin J Bramley

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Does this anti fog mix give optimum results for film and paper or is it just a way of making a bit of use of old film and paper?
I have about 500 sheets of old Agfa and Kodak paper that shows fogging, will I be able to obtain premium results with your approach?
 

MattKing

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Thread title tweaked - to make it easy to find if searched for.
 

gordrob

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It is great to have you back David. For me this is a timely topic as I am fighting with fog on some dated film.
Thanks
Gord
 

Rudeofus

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Does this anti fog mix give optimum results for film and paper or is it just a way of making a bit of use of old film and paper?
I have about 500 sheets of old Agfa and Kodak paper that shows fogging, will I be able to obtain premium results with your approach?

No, you will not get premium results with this approach. If you want premium results with decade old materials, there is always snake oil, which is expensive but works great, or you go and buy fresh stuff. David's formulas allow you to put well aged materials to use. You will lose speed, but the results will show no fog and contrast will be ok. I believe David has shown samples of his results in previous threads.
 

lamerko

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I wonder if this approach would work for color film. I have a great candidate for testing - Eastman EXR 500T, over 30 years old. The film has a very massive base fog.
But I think I will have a problem with measuring the chemicals by volume - I do not have access to sodium carbonate monohydrate, only the anhydrous form, which is a very fine powder - it will have a large volume, but a small weight...
 
OP
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David Lyga

David Lyga

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Please mods, it is OK "to tweak" the title for easier identification and search. However, refrain from advising others to re-read my previous writings on this particularly important topic, as this latest post is a considerable and valuable refinement of such. You will otherwise add to confusion and frustration. Sometimes you moderate too much and at other sorry times you do not moderate when you should be moderating. Don't add to the duplicity and confusion.

Others: I will be posting relevant examples with explanations for all. This finding I consider to be of value to many. Please be patient for a couple of days.
- David Lyga
 
OP
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David Lyga

David Lyga

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I wonder if this approach would work for color film. I have a great candidate for testing - Eastman EXR 500T, over 30 years old. The film has a very massive base fog.
But I think I will have a problem with measuring the chemicals by volume - I do not have access to sodium carbonate monohydrate, only the anhydrous form, which is a very fine powder - it will have a large volume, but a small weight...

I had a separate post for processing C-41 and E-6 films as B&W negatives with NO fog (essentially using Desktop then post-fix Farmer's reducer to augment the image.) Ask me if you need this info.

I used to process C-41 for color when, even after asking (the now deceased) PE for help with fog when processed for color he had no recommendations and, in fact, was the reason I largely stopped making C prints. I am extremely bothered with even a hint of fog on color paper; the fog manifests quite early with color materials. With the negative you can try to print through the damn fog but for E-6 I believe (unless told otherwise) you are defeated. - David Lyga
 
OP
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David Lyga

David Lyga

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Does this anti fog mix give optimum results for film and paper or is it just a way of making a bit of use of old film and paper?
I have about 500 sheets of old Agfa and Kodak paper that shows fogging, will I be able to obtain premium results with your approach?

The quality can be substantial, oftentimes equating with first quality materials. There is a price to pay, however: in terms of greatly diminished speed and fussy processing. What until I post photos in a few days.

It would seem to me that in one hour spent inspecting your materials I could make you a very happy man. I will post results in a few days and answer queries. - David Lyga
 
OP
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David Lyga

David Lyga

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No, you will not get premium results with this approach. If you want premium results with decade old materials, there is always snake oil, which is expensive but works great, or you go and buy fresh stuff. David's formulas allow you to put well aged materials to use. You will lose speed, but the results will show no fog and contrast will be ok. I believe David has shown samples of his results in previous threads.

You might be surprised at the quality attainable with my latest information. Be patient for a few days. Consider my previous post on this specific topic to be defunct. - David Lyga
 

koraks

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However, refrain from advising others to re-read my previous writings on this particularly important topic, as this latest post is a considerable and valuable refinement of such. You will otherwise add to confusion and frustration. Sometimes you moderate too much and at other sorry times you do not moderate when you should be moderating. Don't add to the duplicity and confusion.

Anyone is free to offer links to related posts if they so desire. It's unrelated to someone being a moderator.
The thread title change was the work of a moderator who (successfully) made the thread easier to identify to interested users.
Complaints about moderating should be addressed to us using the 'report' function or by sending a message to the moderator(s) involved with a link to the specific case(s) in point. General/vague hand waving is overall unproductive and I don't really appreciate it; please come talk to us - not about us. Thanks for taking this into consideration.
 
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koraks

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Is the small amount of Metol meant to reduce the induction period of Hydroquinone while not working superadditively?

I frankly think the main effect is that it slows down the developer to such an extent that it becomes very easy to have relatively long development times and yet ensure that little development takes place. It would be interesting to compare the results between this approach and a more normally balanced developer, but a very short development time. I have a feeling (not more than that at this point) that the net result will be the same.
 
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I frankly think the main effect is that it slows down the developer to such an extent that it becomes very easy to have relatively long development times and yet ensure that little development takes place.

The recommended development time in OP seems short for slow development:

Then use my formula (1+4) for eight minutes (remember I am 80 Fahr)
 

koraks

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The recommended development time in OP seems short for slow development:
Ah, yes, but there's the question of exposure. Note what @David Lyga proposed for TMZ:
Kodak TMZ 3200 film that has been sitting around for twenty years or so. [...] shoot a frame at, say, not at its box speed of EI 800 but, instead, at EI 12, a full six steps more exposure. Then use my formula (1+4) for eight minutes ...
This suggests that significant overexposure is part of the approach. And that would indeed make sense, as it would boil down to a two-pronged effect:
1. Dramatic overexposure to drown out the fog
2. Minimal development to ensure only the image-wise exposure is developed while leaving the underlying fog relatively untouched

This is why I think that the same could be achieved by taking a normal developer and a very brief development time - but it would likely be an impractically short time, indeed (maybe 1-2 minutes or so). In a similar vein, one might consider taking something like D76 and dilute it 1+5 or even 1+10 while maintaining a normal development time.

The big question is whether the M:Q ratio really is so significant here. It may or may not be, and it would be interesting to test it.
 
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