Anyone tried kodak e6 patent(US5948604)?

czygeorge · Apr 8, 2023

Days ago my friend told me that he found this interesting patent PDF
(You can easily read it by googleing it)

And we still trying to convince ourselves to reuse it.

In my country if you use drum system(jobo) to process e6，tetenal(and ilford from japan recently) e6 might be the only chioce.

And their price in Europe and America seems reasonable, but it is very expensive in my country(The price here is like doubled).
Also you can't just pour them after using,need to pay and ask chemistry recycling company come to take it.

We also have some alternative from our country,but their quality in my mind is very lousy...(It's actually very shocked me.Since we can produce film and chemistry by our own too in last century)

So that's why me and my friends think we reuse this formula by kodak is nessary.Actually when before i don't even process e6(only bw,c41 and ecn2),but this kodak formula encouraged me

But this formula is so difficult to use

Few of chemistry is hard to get here(like K2SO3,because it can be made bomb...)

Also the Potassium hydroquinone monosulfate,very hard to find and price is like sixty dollars per gram(like gold)

And what confused us is if dequest 2000 and 2006 nessary here?Is it just like water cleaner like kodan anti-ca no.4,or it is actually do something in developing

Just wonder if anyone have tried this or have a thought?Thanks a lot!!!

Anon Ymous · Apr 8, 2023

User @Rudeofus has used this patent's formulae and has posted about them in the resources section of the forum.

Beverly Hills · Apr 8, 2023

Try this :

Beverly Hills · Apr 9, 2023

czygeorge said:
Few of chemistry is hard to get here(like K2SO3,because it can be made bomb...)

Also the Potassium hydroquinone monosulfate

Dear friend, K2SO3 is indeed restricted in many countries !

C6H5KO5S is about 329.00 (10g) purity 98% the price may be variable due to the purity.
CAS : 37067-27-9

......the formulation above ist NOT within Kodak E6 specification. But therefore you don't need
Potassium hydroquinone monosulfate !

You can get it cheaper : what you need is simple
C6H6O2 ~ 22.90 (250g) !!!

@ Rudeofus : what about to useas first developer?..............isn't it the B&W developer in Tetenal E6 Kit ?

czygeorge · Apr 9, 2023

Beverly Hills said:
Dear friend, K2SO3 ist indeed restricted in many countries !

C6H5KO5S is about 329.00 (10g) purity 98% the price may be variable due to the purity.
CAS : 37067-27-9

......the formulation above ist NOT within Kodak E6 specification. But therefore you don't need
Potassium hydroquinone monosulfate !

You can get it cheaper : what you need is simple
C6H6O2 ~ 22.90 (250g) !!!

Thanks a lot Beverly!!
Yes the formula in this patent seems like ridiculous：（，it is designed for one shot use and needs about 20grams C6H5KO5S per liter

I'll take a try on your formula,really appreciate on that

lamerko · Apr 11, 2023

Anon Ymous said:
User @Rudeofus has used this patent's formulae and has posted about them in the resources section of the forum.

Unfortunately, these formulas cannot be made in Europe - I can't get Mercaptotriazole, DTOD and Dequest 2000. Also, DTPA is expensive...

Anon Ymous · Apr 11, 2023

lamerko said:
Unfortunately, these formulas cannot be made in Europe - I can't get Mercaptotriazole, DTOD and Dequest 2000. Also, DTPA is expensive...

I got my mercaptotriazole, DTPA-5Na and Dequest 2006 (ATMP-5Na) fron Axelcolor. Suvatlar stocks DTOD and HQMS-K. He stocks some more exotic chemicals that aren't in his pricelist, but you have to ask him.

Beverly Hills · Apr 11, 2023

lamerko said:
Unfortunately, these formulas cannot be made in Europe - I can't get Mercaptotriazole, DTOD and Dequest 2000. Also, DTPA is expensive...

Anon Ymous said:
I got my mercaptotriazole, DTPA-5Na and Dequest 2006 (ATMP-5Na) fron Axelcolor. Suvatlar stocks DTOD and HQMS-K. He stocks some more exotic chemicals that aren't in his pricelist, but you have to ask him.

Unfortunately, the regulations in many countries have become drastically tightened. Partly for reasons that are understandable, partly a lot is now
taken with a pitch of salt.... !

Remember - Derek watkin's formula dates back to a time when about 120 million E6 films were sold worldwide -
( in 1995 ).

Nowadays, hardly more than 0,5% of these sales figures are
allowed to be achived. No one can say more
precisely (company secrets).

The chemical industry does not exclusively produce the vast
majority of the raw materials for film.

In a few cases were it happened in the past that a high proportion of a chemical was actually in demand for the film
industry, now you have massive problems.

Either the substance is indispensable for the film production,
then one accepts exorbitantly high costs for the production by the chemical industry, or one looks for an alternative in the form of a derivative, in cases where it is possible, and reforms the process with modifications.

Same procedure here....!

At the time this formula was developed, all of the base
ingredients required were a good deal cheaper than the home developememt kits avaible at the time.

In relation to each other, the prices have shifted upwards in equal measure.

With one decisive difference : bleach !

The bleach bath skyrocketed due to increased disposal costs for the laboratories and due to increased raws.

A main advantage here from my view : No reversal bath... !

lamerko · Apr 12, 2023

Anon Ymous said:
I got my mercaptotriazole, DTPA-5Na and Dequest 2006 (ATMP-5Na) fron Axelcolor. Suvatlar stocks DTOD and HQMS-K. He stocks some more exotic chemicals that aren't in his pricelist, but you have to ask him.

After you mentioned Axelcolor, I checked out their Italian Ebay store. Indeed, there is Mercaptotriazole in there, but not DTPA-5Na and Dequest 2006. I will contact Suvatlar, but I don't have high hopes.

Beverly Hills said:
A main advantage here from my view : No reversal bath... !

Yes, the reversible bath can be skipped. But in it the only thing I can't get is Dequest 2006 which is used in CD and FD.

By the way, what's the point of this "Prebleach Bath"?

Anon Ymous · Apr 12, 2023

lamerko said:
After you mentioned Axelcolor, I checked out their Italian Ebay store. Indeed, there is Mercaptotriazole in there, but not DTPA-5Na and Dequest 2006. I will contact Suvatlar, but I don't have high hopes.

It's not listed as DTPA-5Na, but anticalcio 8. They also don't list Dequest 2006, but I asked if they had ATMP-5Na, which they do.

Anon Ymous · Apr 12, 2023

lamerko said:
By the way, what's the point of this "Prebleach Bath"?

It contains the bleach accelerator and carryover of this to bleach will speed things up. It also has formaldehyde in the form of formaldehyde - bisulfite adduct and is needed to stabilise dyes. If you don't use it there, you will need to use formalin with your wetting agent.

lamerko · Apr 12, 2023

Thanks for the reply.
I will look for Mercaptotriazole, ATMP-5Na and Anticalcio 8 from the Axelcolor store.
What is the difference between ATMP and ATMP-5Na? They are use both in the formulas, but I didn't see it at first...
Regarding DTOD - I believe it is something similar to thiocyanate. Can I replace it directly with potassium (sodium) thiocyanate (I have both) and if so, in what proportion? That would save me the trouble of looking for something exotic.
About the HQMS-K - I probably wouldn't have a problem getting it, but its cost is a factor. So I thought about its synthesis - I saw two approaches. Has anyone tried Hydroquinone + Potassium Sulfite + Sulfuric Acid (37%, I can't get concentrated)? Yes, I know there is no way to find Potassium Sulphite, but there is Potassium Metabisulphite available instead - I believe that with simple heating, it will produce Potassium Sulphite and the nasty Sulfur Dioxide...

Anon Ymous · Apr 13, 2023

lamerko said:
What is the difference between ATMP and ATMP-5Na?

One is the acid, the other is the sodium salt. You can use the salt and reduce sodium hydroxide quantity accordingly if the formula uses hydroxide. If not, you can reduce the carbonate quantity.

lamerko said:
Regarding DTOD - I believe it is something similar to thiocyanate. Can I replace it directly with potassium (sodium) thiocyanate (I have both) and if so, in what proportion? That would save me the trouble of looking for something exotic.

There's one of the CD formulae by @stefan4u where he uses thiocyanate. It works ok and perhaps you could give it a try.

lamerko said:
Yes, I know there is no way to find Potassium Sulphite, but there is Potassium Metabisulphite available instead - I believe that with simple heating, it will produce Potassium Sulphite and the nasty Sulfur Dioxide...

If you have potassium metabisulfite, then reacting it with potassium hydroxide will give you potassium sulfite. Good luck synthesizing it.

lamerko · Apr 13, 2023

It's no problem for me to get potassium metabisulfite. Winemaking is a national sport in my country - potassium metabisulphite is widely used in production. It's also very cheap
I'm going to test this method, but I don't know if it will work - usually KOH is sold in flakes or granules. I don't know if a full reaction will occur in this condition...

Anon Ymous · Apr 13, 2023

lamerko said:
It's no problem for me to get potassium metabisulfite. Winemaking is a national sport in my country - potassium metabisulphite is widely used in production. It's also very cheap
I'm going to test this method, but I don't know if it will work - usually KOH is sold in flakes or granules. I don't know if a full reaction will occur in this condition...

I'm not sure how you're going to synthesize HQMS-K by reacting hydroquinone, metabisulfite and sulfuric acid. This will probably produce sodium sulfate, sulfur dioxide and water, leaving hydroquinone as is. You may be confusing it with another patent method, where hydroquinone reacts with sodium sulfite and hydrogen peroxide, but I really don't believe that it produces any HQMS. When I tried it few years ago, peroxide reacted with sulfite to give sulfate (instantly, temperature increase occurred rapidly).

lamerko · Apr 13, 2023

Ohh... that's what happens when I search for information at night..

It was about the following:
"In 600 ml hot water at 60-70 C dissolve 200g hydroquinone, then with stirring, slowly add 120 ml sulfuric acid 98%. The glass with the mix put to hot plate and boil the mix for 1.5 hours. When contents had been evaporated by 1.5 part, glass should be removed from hot plate, cooled and then put to freezer chamber of the fridge for 5-6 hours. The precipitate is brown crystal. You should filtered them, then recrystallize. After recrystallization hydroquinone monosulfonic acid should be dried , but below 60 C."

If this works, will the addition of KOH give the desired HQMS-K salt?

Anon Ymous · Apr 13, 2023

lamerko said:
Ohh... that's what happens when I search for information at night..

It was about the following:
"In 600 ml hot water at 60-70 C dissolve 200g hydroquinone, then with stirring, slowly add 120 ml sulfuric acid 98%. The glass with the mix put to hot plate and boil the mix for 1.5 hours. When contents had been evaporated by 1.5 part, glass should be removed from hot plate, cooled and then put to freezer chamber of the fridge for 5-6 hours. The precipitate is brown crystal. You should filtered them, then recrystallize. After recrystallization hydroquinone monosulfonic acid should be dried , but below 60 C."

If this works, will the addition of KOH give the desired HQMS-K salt?

Ah, yes, it's from a Russian resource IIRC, Shadrin? I'm not very sure about the meaning of "evaporated by 1,5 part". But anyway, if you do succeed in synthesizing the free acid, I'd use it as is in the formula (in equimolar amount of course) and add the required amount of KOH to give HQMS-K in solution.

Alain Deloc · Apr 16, 2023

czygeorge said:
Also you can't just pour them after using,need to pay and ask chemistry recycling company come to take it.

How is the process? You have sensors in the toilet that detects E6 chemistry?

czygeorge · Apr 20, 2023

High all,recently i found out almost all the chemical this needs.I try to do it and give you the result

lamerko · May 9, 2023

Again with my woes
I ordered ATMP and DTPA-5Na (courtesy of Suvatlar).
Problem turned out to be DTOD - 25g/€107.10 ex VAT ($140 USD incl VAT). I'm a bit confused about the meaning of this chemical - why is it necessary to reduce the silver during color development? How far can this process be replaced by KSCN/NaSCN/Na₂S₂O₃? And if these chemicals are not active enough, can a "pre-bath" be done with just one of them to compensate?

Alain Deloc · May 9, 2023

I gave up on DTOD because of the high price. It can be replace with KSCN, but I don't know the ratio. I used Stefan Lange formula for E6 color developer which is formulated with KSCN. If you reach the pH, everything will be fine.The most important step is first developer : pH, temperature, time.

czygeorge · May 15, 2023

Alain Deloc said:
I gave up on DTOD because of the high price. It can be replace with KSCN, but I don't know the ratio. I used Stefan Lange formula for E6 color developer which is formulated with KSCN. If you reach the pH, everything will be fine.The most important step is first developer : pH, temperature, time.

I got everything the original formula needs in my country and of course some of them was hard to buy and expensive.The potassium hydroquinone monosulfate here is about 95usds per kg.And after several times of failure the result good finally.
Yes I need to adjust the PH of color developer by H2SH2SO4 12.04 it required

lamerko · May 15, 2023

czygeorge said:
I got everything the original formula needs in my country and of course some of them was hard to buy and expensive.The potassium hydroquinone monosulfate here is about 95usds per kg.And after several times of failure the result good finally.
Yes I need to adjust the PH of color developer by H2SH2SO4 12.04 it required

Oh... for me the price for 1kg of HQMS-K is $340 and for DTOD - $5600 (no, no mistake). Obviously, I won't be using DTOD, but I need HQMS. I would get it from China - a some time ago I bought chemistry from Alibaba, I hope they have this one too...

Alain Deloc said:
I gave up on DTOD because of the high price. It can be replace with KSCN, but I don't know the ratio. I used Stefan Lange formula for E6 color developer which is formulated with KSCN. If you reach the pH, everything will be fine.The most important step is first developer : pH, temperature, time.

I will experiment with thiocyanate. I have a reason to experiment with VNF-1 (I bought a large amount of VN film, which gave really interesting results in ECN-2) - I will cross the first developer

czygeorge · Jun 10, 2023

Hi all,just for update

Here are some processed by this patent formula.Got to say thanks a lot to Kodak!

And this formula is very expensive and hard to make too,still facing some issues

czygeorge · Jun 10, 2023

Hi all,just for update

Here are some processed by this patent formula.Got to say thanks a lot to Kodak!

And this formula is very expensive and hard to make too,still facing some issues

Anyone tried kodak e6 patent(US5948604)?

czygeorge

Anon Ymous

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