B/W film in summer for urban documentary project, and come kit critique please

[albireo]

One reason that I use colored filters like yellow or orange with B&W is that I dislike the look of a washed-out sky that can occur with using no filter. The sky has a lot of UV light that film is overly sensitive to.

One alternative solution if you don't want to carry a filter or incur in the filter light penalty: choose ultra panchromatic film! Eg Foma 400 or Rollei Retro 400S have a lovely spectral frequency graph that extends well into the red and pierces that UV light and gives you the nice darker sky effect you'd get from an orange filter without incurring in the 2 stops penalty.

 

[RezaLoghme]

Thanks - filters are a bit tricky when it comes to the old-style Distagon, insiders will know why.
And the 10 rolls have already arrived and I am leaving in 2 days, so I will have to work with what I have.

 

[albireo]

Why exposed at 200?

I was - perhaps wrongly - assuming you're just starting with film photography, and I was assuming you'd expose using an in camera centre-weighted meter. In my experience with very contrasty light, these meters can be tricked (depending on what's in the composition of course) by the brighter portions of the scene, and using a film at half box speed is a good rule of thumb to obtain more technically usable images - at least until you familiarise yourself with your camera's way to offer exposure compensation (sometimes it's on a dial, sometimes a button, sometimes both) or you gain experience with eg incident or spot meters.

Also XP2+ has some incredible latitude but looks much better over exposed than under exposed IME.

 

[takilmaboxer]

XP2 has a strongly S-shaped response curve. At 400 ASA the exposures are more likely to occupy the bottom of the curve, where contrast is quite high. At 100 they are more likely to occupy the upper part of the curve, with lower contrast. I like to make two exposures with XP2 at both speeds, the negatives can result in different looking prints. It has wide latitude - when in doubt, add exposure.

 

[MTGseattle]

I think the question "Now I am having second thoughts - isn't b/w a bit unsuitable for photographs taken in summer?" Is what confused many of us. I have never heard that concern expressed. I would definitely give a thought to your film asa/iso in relation to the light you expect to encounter (as many have said above).

as to your equipment, if the Hasselblad 500 series with a waist level finder is familiar and natural for you to use then it is the appropriate kit. If it isn't a very familiar system for you, I would suggest something that is familiar as a potential backup. you don't want to be "learning" a camera while working on a project. It can certainly be done, but why complicate things?

 

[Alex Benjamin]

I come from a place whose Summer light is similar to Istanbul's, just much stronger. I shoot 400 ISO film all the time in Summer and I have never, ever used f/16 or f/22 in my exposures. I also have never owned an ND filter. Probably a matter of taste in terms of target exposure. I like to pull.

Curious you'd use the word 'versatility', I love 100 ISO film, but it's 100 ISO film that doesn't give me as much versatility as 400 ISO film in strong light/handheld Summer photography.

Sorry, did not want to make it sound as if I was making a rule out of it. A lot of people feel the way you do. It's a matter of habit, I guess. And what pleases you most in terms of look, as you mention.

When I travel south, or even here (Montreal) in the summer, I now mostly carry FP4+. I find it very versatile as it can be shot at 65, 100, 125 and 200, all with excellent quality. I really like it at 200, much more so than I like Tri-X at 200, which is how many people rate it.

That said, a lot of it also depends on the camera. When traveling, I only take the 35mm, so a low ISO film works well. If I'm to shoot with the heavier Pentax 67, then yes, I also go with a 400 ISO film, HP5+ usually.

As mentioned above it is meant to be a documentary project along a storyline, not "street". B/w because i really like Ara Güler's book about Istanbul.

This means you have to think about this as a mid- to long-term project. One doesn't document a city in a couple of days. We're talking months, if not years. Ara Güler is a good example — he spent his whole life there —, another being W. Eugene Smith, who was hired to do a documentary on Pittsburgh in a few weeks, and ended up spending three years there.

In order to take out gear as a source of worry, main question for you would be is this a place you can go back to often or are you there just once. Makes a difference.

My experience is that when traveling one always, ALWAYS, run into a situation in which one says "I really wish I had my [insert name and focal distance of lens here] with me for this shot!". Always. Not to mention finding the perfect spot but the day being cloudy, or the sun shining in the wrong direction — the ol' "This scene will be absolutely stunning at 7 pm but my plane is leaving at 5" trick.

This stops becoming a problem if you know you can come back another day, another time, in a week, a month or two, the next year. If so, traveling with just one lens stops becoming an issue. Shoot what fits with the lens you have, always carry a small notebook with you, take note of the place, time and the lens that you think would work for the shot.

Advice would be different if you only had a few days in the place. For travel, when I know I won't have much time and might not have the chance to come back, I take the 35mm camera with a 35mm (or 28mm), a 50mm and an 85mm lens. It never covers everything, but it covers most of everything.

Same with film. As I mentioned above, I like shooting slow films. Albiero, and others, shoot fast films in the same situation. There's not right or wrong. There's just experience, taste and practice. Take your 400 ISO film, see if it works for you. If it does, great. If it doesn't, next time you're going there, take another, slower, film. Or take both if experience tells you you need both because there are too many different lighting situations.

Side note : another photographer who brilliantly captured Istanbul, this time in color, is Alex Webb. His book on the subject is marvelous.

 

[BrianShaw]

I am asking for other people's opinion. If you don't want to share yours, so be it.

I didn’t. So it was.

Enjoy your journey. I’ll be awaiting a trip report!

 

[Sirius Glass]

First choice is Kodak Tri-X 400, then Ilford PF 400 both developed in replenished XTOL.
For infrared Rollei IR 400 both developed in replenished XTOL.

 

[RezaLoghme]

I was - perhaps wrongly - assuming you're just starting with film photography, and I was assuming you'd expose using an in camera centre-weighted meter.

Thats my kit as stated in the opening post:
"I am taking a 500CM as the ELX is too noisy, and a 2nd generation WLF ref. 42315, and a 50mm Distagon C in black, 2 chrome A12 backs ref. 30074, and the rubberized wide strap ref. 59080."

 

[RezaLoghme]

More

More good stuff

Thank you again!
I am going to be in town just for a few days, hence the "rehearsal" notion of my trip. I am going to be in that city twice a year.
I dont have many alternatives; it will be one of the V system cameras and one of the lenses.
The whole conceptual and psychological aspects of such project - yes, I am aware of them and will deal with them separately. In this forum I will largely ask for technical advice.

 

[RezaLoghme]

I think the question "Now I am having second thoughts - isn't b/w a bit unsuitable for photographs taken in summer?" Is what confused many of us. I have never heard that concern expressed. I would definitely give a thought to your film asa/iso in relation to the light you expect to encounter (as many have said above).

as to your equipment, if the Hasselblad 500 series with a waist level finder is familiar and natural for you to use then it is the appropriate kit. If it isn't a very familiar system for you, I would suggest something that is familiar as a potential backup. you don't want to be "learning" a camera while working on a project. It can certainly be done, but why complicate things?

I think it is important to be self-reflective and to allow these second thoughts to resonate. Group think is generally counter-productive.

 

[eli griggs]

No, som

Thank you!

1. Why the yellow filter? I have the old, C Distagon with all its complicated drop-in filter conundrum.
2. isn't b/w a bit unsuitable for photographs taken in summer?

NO, some of the best summer shots ever taken were in B&W, just leaf through "The Family of Man" to reassure yourself and, possibly, inspire your imagination and photography.

Take a yellow-green filter, ND filters, UV filter, polarizers, and strong orange, orange-red and an adjustable lens shade.

Godspeed, have fun and share pics.

Eli

 

[RezaLoghme]

I have the old, C Distagon with all its complicated drop-in filter conundrum. I dont have the inner filter ring, which is extremely hard to find, so its going to be without filters.

 

[Dan Daniel]

The whole conceptual and psychological aspects of such project - yes, I am aware of them and will deal with them separately. In this forum I will largely ask for technical advice.

The 'Color or B&W??' question is almost completely conceptual and psychological, not technical.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I come from a place whose Summer light is similar to Istanbul's, just much stronger. I shoot 400 ISO film all the time in Summer and I have never, ever used f/16 or f/22 in my exposures. I also have never owned an ND filter. Probably a matter of taste in terms of target exposure. I like to pull.

Curious you'd use the word 'versatility', I love 100 ISO film, but it's 100 ISO film that doesn't give me as much versatility as 400 ISO film in strong light/handheld Summer photography.

pulling XP2 gives me way too soft negatives.

 

[albireo]

pulling XP2 gives me way too soft negatives.

Not sure why Ralph. Maybe a matter of preference. I adore the glistening highlights I get from pulled XP2+ shot on a sunny day. As you know, unlike a traditional B/W film, XP2 is 'grainy' in the shadows, and not in the highlights. I've never seen anything approaching the purity of the textures of e.g. a sunlit whitewashed building with XP2+ at 250 or so.

 

[albireo]

Here's a old review from my bookmarks. This guy's impressions mirror my findings with XP2+ in 120.

Ilford XP2 -An under appreciated film

Having recently worked intensively with the whole range of Ilford 35mm films, I thought that I would write a few articles on the special qualities or quirks of some of them. In this post I’d like t…

thewebdarkroom.co.uk

A couple of quotes:

With XP2, overexposure is an advantage. The image is formed in the same way as with normally developed negatives, but during processing the film grain is replaced by overlapping, semi dense ‘platelets’ of dye. Because they overlap in the heavily exposed areas, there is no actual gap between the grains, and hence, no impression of grain on the print.
In areas of shadow, less of the platelets are created, allowing more light through the larger gaps. This gives a grainy look.

With conventional films, quality suffers with overexposure if development is not reduced and this shows as harsh grain. the opposite is true of this film. White hair, white dresses, skies etc, all have a beautiful, smooth tonality, which will come as a pleasant surprise if you are used to seeing the bleached out highlights of a digital image. Portraits on XP2 also have a different look, the lighter tones of the image: the skin etc, display a very smooth tonality. The shadow areas, such as dark clothing will show the grain (with 35mm film), but this is not too much of a problem, in most prints you would have to look closely to see it. From a medium format negative it really wouldn’t be a problem.

So if over exposure produces better results, then XP2 is best over exposed. For instance; rated at 200 ISO.

 

[Don_ih]

I have the old, C Distagon with all its complicated drop-in filter conundrum. I dont have the inner filter ring, which is extremely hard to find, so its going to be without filters.

Tape them on.

 

[Alex Benjamin]

More

Thank you again!
I am going to be in town just for a few days, hence the "rehearsal" notion of my trip. I am going to be in that city twice a year.
I dont have many alternatives; it will be one of the V system cameras and one of the lenses.
The whole conceptual and psychological aspects of such project - yes, I am aware of them and will deal with them separately. In this forum I will largely ask for technical advice.

If this is the case — that this trip is a rehearsal and that you can only bring the one camera, lens, and film — then my advice is to focus solely on the conceptual and psychological aspect of your project and leave the technical matters until after you've developed the film.

Asking beforehand will only create confusion — albireao likes XP2 pulled, Ralph says it's too soft, I dislike both and prefer to slightly push FP4+ at 200, and nobody's wrong because we're all judging this according to our own criteria. Once you've developed you film, you'll be able to tell what you like and what you don't like about your photos, you'll be better able to tell yourself, and us, what you're striving for, and this will make it much easier for people here to give you advice. You'll still get a hundred different answers, but they'll at least, ideally, be more focused on what you are looking for, and less on what each of us prefers.

Personally, to make this even easier, I would take at least one roll of FP4+ and one roll of HP5+, both shot at box speed, and, since you've been given both advices, shoot one roll of XP2 at 200 and another at 400. This would give you a good, basic, esthetic mapping of what the possibilities are.

Same with lens choice. Only after the fact will you be able to clearly state if you need wider, if it's too wide, if you need a lens that brings you closer, and by how much, or if a two- or three-lens kit is best for what you're trying to achieve. It takes years of experience and practice — or a total lack of choice — before being able to settle on a single lens kit and to know exactly how to exploit it fully (and, contrary to popular belief, HCB did not shoot only with a 50mm lens ).

For the rest, since this is a "rehearsal" trip, your best friend, as I mentioned earlier, will be the notebook. A city is a huge and complex place, and there's no way you'll even begin to get the feel of it, photographically speaking, in a couple of days; and if you spend 8 to 10 hours slowly walking around, as this type of project calls for — you other best friends will be you legs —, you'll have spent your few rolls of film in no time.

 

[RezaLoghme]

If this is the case — that this trip is a rehearsal and that you can only bring the one camera, lens, and film — then my advice is to focus solely on the conceptual and psychological aspect of your project and leave the technical matters until after you've developed the film.

(...)

Personally, to make this even easier, I would take at least one roll of FP4+ and one roll of HP5+, both shot at box speed, and, since you've been given both advices, shoot one roll of XP2 at 200 and another at 400. This would give you a good, basic, esthetic mapping of what the possibilities are.

(...)

Same with lens choice. Only after the fact will you be able to clearly state if you need wider, if it's too wide, if you need a lens that brings you closer, and by how much, or if a two- or three-lens kit is best for what you're trying to achieve.

(...)

For the rest, since this is a "rehearsal" trip, your best friend, as I mentioned earlier, will be the notebook. A city is a huge and complex place, and there's no way you'll even begin to get the feel of it, photographically speaking, in a couple of days; and if you spend 8 to 10 hours slowly walking around, as this type of project calls for — you other best friends will be you legs —, you'll have spent your few rolls of film in no time.

(...)

Thank you so much. This is all great - nothing is "new" but so valuable when hearing it from someone else.

- I could take my 80mm Planar, too. But maybe I will just keep it simple with the 50mm.
- I have comfortable (and proven) shoes, and I will buy a new notebook. And I will get up early, maybe 5ish to leave the hotel at 6.
- I cant buy any other film for now, but that way I will make the most out of the one-lense-one-film-one-camera idea.

That you again for reminding me of the "rehearsal" notion of my trip, it totally makes sense. I have also found a great article on "Blind" magazine by an Italian photographer which I am reading right now.

You have been very helpful!

 

[BrianShaw]

Ironically, having been in similar position several times, the amount of pre-thinking is sometimes inversely proportional to the success of such a journey. I tend to focus "scouting trips" more on subjects than on which camera/film to use... although both are important. Oddly, some of my best images come from scouting trips, and some scouting trips sadly become the only trip. In one memorable case, the scouting trip lead to subsequent trips and, much to my surprise, when I had the 'optimal camera/film combination', the scene had changed and the lighting was quite poor compared to my initial experience.

 

[RezaLoghme]

Hm, that is interesting.

So one camera one lens, f8, and let it happen.

Great input!

(I often "brainstorm" with CGPT but am exhausted by all its disclaimers and politically correct answers)

 

[RezaLoghme]

Update - I have taken the 500CM and also my X 113 as backup. One A12 decided to act up, but the other one was fine.

The 60mm is not ideal for "my" style, I guess its the 80mm or a (yet to be bought) 100mm. My whole concept has also changed a bit and instead of doing "illustrative" photos, it will be more about structures and surfaces and mosaics and all.

Carrying the 500CM is not an issue. I am even thinking about taking the 553ELX next time. BUt I am going to retrofit all my film backs with a darkslide holder. That was more annoying than I thought.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

This was taken in summer, but I doubt that it answers your question:
View attachment 370238
(It is one of the Moderation team at work - and yes, I missed focus!)
If what you want from the your summer photography is colour, and that is a not an unusual thing to want, then black and white film isn't appropriate.
Which brings up the most important question - What is it you want to create with your photography?
If what you want is more like this image, then the colour may be important
View attachment 370239

The unfocussed-ness of the image, blends me nicely into the scene.

 

[RezaLoghme]

So the lab only received 3 of 5 rolls of film, the envelope was torn open. One of the films was not exposed - I greatly succeeded in loading the magazine the wrong way. The two surviving rolls showed the rear upper barn door not fully opening, so basically most pics were a mess.

Still, a good trip, and many important lessons learned.