B/W film in summer for urban documentary project, and come kit critique please

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RezaLoghme

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Yeah ok.
I have the Hasselblad and some digital gear and will use it, as I am not going to get into another system for the time being, I will have to work with what I have, thats a 60mm 80mm 150mm trio which should cover many situations, and shutter speeds up to 1/500, and the PME has TTL measuring. And I have 5 late-version V-System backs (A/E12) now, equating to 60 photos without reloading, and I am quite comfortable in re-loading the magazines while "on the go". And no trip- or monopod for that trip.

I also have a ungainly large zoom for my SL.Which operates like a 35mm SLR but better.
 
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GregY

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I agree Matt, losing a prime photo while changing film is certainly a consideration with 120 film. I know i'd choose a grittier 35mm/Tri-X look over medium format in this situation.
 
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RezaLoghme

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There is also little in the way of image quality improvements over a 35mm SLR if you are using it handheld in fast changing environments - potentially image quality detriment when compared with 35mm SLRs that offer technology that reduces the effects of camera movement.
Hm, my SL 601 has that, so you are saying that maybe digital is better than analog for this project?
 
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RezaLoghme

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I do think @Don_ih's question was serious and deserved a serious answer.

The level of secrecy you maintain about this project is rather baffling and difficult to understand. What exactly are you worried would happen should you divulge the name of the country and city?

Maybe I am overthinking things a bit. Alex, in which Caucasus and Central Asian countries have you been so far, maybe you can give me concrete advice based on your own experience. Just name the countries.
 

GregY

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Me too but I only have MF analog cameras but thats ok.

You use what you have.... that's what Josef Koudelka did....
download-8.jpg
 

Alex Benjamin

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Some examples of Hasselblad photographers documenting protests with V-Series:

Ta Mwe in Myanmar, Heinz Fröhlich in Prague, Klaus Thymann (various), Anastasia Taylor-Lind (Ukraine), Andrea Briscoli (Berlin)...I am certainly not in the same league, but maybe one day....

The V series was build for professional use, so it will hopefully survive that trip. If not, its modular architecture might make repairs/replacements not too difficult.

Apart from Ta Mwe, I haven't seen in these other photographers' work examples of photographing riots. What I saw from Andrea Briscoli are photographs from very peaceful protests, and anastasia Taylor-Lind's absolutely stunning Ukrainian series are essential portraits — the idea of asking these women stand in front of the camera with their flowers in hand is both brilliant and moving. I couldn't find anything ressembling a protest on Klaus Thymann's website's portfolios.

Ta Mwe's photos come close to what you are describing. Being from the country, he obviously knows the terrain and the people there very well. His photos were taken in the span of many months, not just one day of protest. Hopefully, you can do the same.

maybe you can give me concrete advice based on your own experience

I have given you advice based on my own experience. I work for a news media. I've studied journalism, and most of my colleagues and friends are journalists, some of whom have been in difficult and violent situations abroad. I am very familiar with the type of training they go through before they leave, be it to cover people in Ukraine or to document the wave of feminicides in Mexico. I've also had the opportunity to chat with the photographers and/or cameramen who accompany them.

Wandering around a city and documenting its people is one thing. It's a great experience, a good way to both learn the craft of photography and learn to communicate and interact with people. Anybody can do it, everybody should do it. And it can be done with any camera, from 35mm to 4x5. You have a great set up, if your intent, as seemed to be the case earlier on, is to document a city and its people "Ara Güler-style," honestly, you're all set, and have been so by page 2 or 3 of this thread.

But documenting a city and its people "Ara Güler-style" is a far cry from shooting a protest that turns into a riot, which now seems to be the main, or one of the main objectives of this project. That's for pros: because they know their craft, have the skills, and have the training to know what to do and where to go if and when things take a turn for the worse. You only go into these situations if you're knowledge of your gear is so intimate that using it has become like breathing or drinking a glass of water. You don't go into these situations with a film camera if you don't know how to change your roll in a millisecond, and if you don't know all that the film you've chosen can do well.

In other words, a protest that turns into a riot is not a place to learn or experiment.

Hence my advice to talk to a pro or to take a workshop with one. If you're intent is to photograph a protest that looks more like Myanmar than a Berlin peace march that's only missing the flowers in one's hair, then you need expertise, which a pro will give you, not opinions, however informed they are, which the good people at Photrio can give you.

Nobody's trying to dissuade you from doing this project. On the contrary. I think you've had a lot of support and encouragement. What you have misconstrued as prying into your personal affair was rather a way of giving you better advice using the most information possible. As I said before, to me, it's very difficult to "critique" a choice of camera and film without knowing all the circumstances in which it will be used. Some have agreed with that position, some have disagreed. Part of the forum life.

In the end, you are free to do want you want, how you want to do it, with the gear you want to do it with. I can assure you, the day you post on Photrio "This is it, I'm leaving for the protest (even though I'm not telling you where😄), wish me luck!" Everybody will cheer.

Hm, my SL 601 has that, so you are saying that maybe digital is better than analog for this project?

My suggestion would be to take the medium format for your "Ara Güler-style" photos of the city and its people, and, for the protest/riot, an SLR — 35mm film or digital, whichever you are very familiar with — with a 28mm prime for close-ups and large views and a 70-200mm zoom in case you have to move out fast but still want great shots from afar. The 28mm can be replaced by a 24-70mm zoom. This is the basic set-up a pro photojournalist covering such an event would use.

If you don't like zooms, carry a wide or normal lens + a telephoto (anything from 135mm to 200mm).

You use what you have.... that's what Josef Koudelka did....
View attachment 374361


These are so extraordinary. I never get tired of looking at them.
 
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RezaLoghme

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Hello Alex
Have you ever been to Caucasus or Central Asia (does not matter if photo-related or not)?
 
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Don_ih

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Have you ever been to Caucasus or Central Asia, photo-related or not?

Alex has basically written you several essays of good, well-informed advice. It might be nice to be a little appreciative of the time or effort without challenging him on largely irrelevant travel destinations. It doesn't matter if he was there or not. Anyone with the slightest amount of consideration and imagination should be able to tell that he's correct. His advice would only benefit you.
 

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I think you got a lot of very useful advice and information here.

To understand your goals better:
what do you answer the protesters or police if they ask you about the reason of your photography?
cause I don't think you can tell them - that you are working on a city portrait / Ara Güter style and their protests is a opportunity to avoid clichès, or show the ELX the world.
do you speak the local language of country unknown?
(i have never been in that region, if that's important to know)

Is it possible to post some pictures of the output of your training sessions?
 
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RezaLoghme

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I think you got a lot of very useful advice and information here.

To understand your goals better:
what do you answer the protesters or police if they ask you about the reason of your photography?
cause I don't think you can tell them - that you are working on a city portrait / Ara Güter style and their protests is a opportunity to avoid clichès, or show the ELX the world.
do you speak the local language of country unknown?
(i have never been in that region, if that's important to know)

Is it possible to post some pictures of the output of your training sessions?

Hi Joxo

Good points. There is no perfect answer. Sticking to the truth is what works best, especially if - like in my case - the truth is quite simple and harmless. I will tell them that I am a tourist (after all, that is what I am - not a pro) and that I want to "report" what is going on in their country to other people in the world. If they don't like that, there are several scenarios. They drag me into lengthy discussions (well-intentioned but lengthy) about the issues in the country, effectively distracting me from taking that one million dollar shot. They take my camera and/or film. They physically assault me, from pushing to beating to arresting to killing (unlikely). They tell me to leave and go to hell. Or all of the aforementioned. I can decide to abandon my session after a few snaps, or go to a different street/place, or keep on going. As I am not on a mission paid by someone else, having to come back home with a TIME-magazine-front-page-worthy shot, but simply being an amateur with a mission driven purely by personal interest, I can scale the whole thing up and down. I could hire a local photog. Or team up with one. Write an essay about the whole thing but avoiding being present at the protests (not: "riots", not "war"). Do a Relotius. Etc. Everything from taking some quick shots with a wide angle lens or tele, from a distance, to being that guy takes a selfie while throwing back a tear gas grenade.

Postscriptum: I found it a good tactic to ask people if I can take pictures (not: "their picture"). I am on nodding-greeting terms with some of the organizers (not: "security guards") of the protests I am using for my training session, and that approach feels good.
 
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BrianShaw

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Thinking on your feet when/if confronted is likely the only thing you can do! Honesty is often the best policy, as they say, but I can only imagine that as an outsider you will still be perceived as "press" with a potential agenda. Or you'll be essentially dismissed for not bein "legitimate press". Hopefully you won't get pummeled with the"are you for or against" kind of questioning/interrogation. Neither answer is likely going to be a good one. Have you considered adding another rationale to your quiver, like "I'm an student of life and artusing photography and thought this looked interesting"?

BTW, I was actually quite serious when asking about fashion and dress. For a while I had the opportunity to walk the streets of a major metropolitain city with a camera in a country that wasn't mine. Despite thinking I'd fit in and be inconspicuous, folks seemed to know I was from afar (and where I was from) before I even opened my heavily-accented (to them ) mouth. One told me that it was my clothing that was the dead giveaway. So I bought local clothes and for some reason that didn't work much better. I'd tell you where I was and what I was wearing but that's quite irrelevant to the point being made...

In my mind, you've received a lot of great gear- and process-related information to consider. Good luck wherever your journey takes you.
 
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RezaLoghme

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Yes, thank you, good points. "Blending in" is about what to wear, but also how to appear. The more of a "press photographer" I am looking like (multi-pocket vest, huge cream-coloured tele lens, squatting down making all those Nick-Faldo-reading-the-green moves, etc.) the more "suspicious" it will make me. Again, "suspicion" can come from the protestors and from the officials. There is also a chance that they have bigger fish to fry and don't give a snapshot about who I am and what I am doing.

Having said that, there is no point for me "disguising" myself in some sort of "suspiciously unsuspicious" garb, so the sports team/college t-shirt, the supersize cola and the baseball cap will also stay at home. I mentioned Muji - for me, thats a good option. Neutral colours, comfortable, and somehow compatible with my style.

I have already asked someone to join me on the ground; the person is also a photo amateur and as a team, it might be both fun and practical.

And, yes, fine-tuning the story into something more "artsy" is surely a good idea, and closer to the truth.

And - 1. walking around with a camera, and 2. probably with eyes wide open, looking for that great shot - that will have given away who you are.....:smile:
 

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One last thought... I'm assuming that you are aware of the religious prediliction of where you are going. There are some religions that may have ill-feelings about image making. This is not intended to initiate a religious discussion (forbidden on this forum) but only to broach an potential consideration of your project that has heretofore not been mentioned.
 
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RezaLoghme

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Yes I am very familiar with the customs of various countries in that region.

I would also like to ask you: have you ever been in one of the countries in Caucasus or Central Asia? Just a factual question, no sub-text.

What you are describing ("Aniconism") differs vastly between countries and cultures, and that particular view is actually quite rare and not observed in the way it is often narrated. One country in Central Asia is a (negative) exception.
 
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BrianShaw

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Yes I am very familiar with the customs of various countries in that region.

I would also like to ask you: have you ever been in one of the countries in Caucasus or Central Asia? What you are describing ("Aniconism") differs vastly between countries and cultures, and that particular view is actually quite rare and not observed in the way it is often narrated. One country in Central Asia is a (negative) exception.

No, I've never been to that part of the world; in fact, not even close. I only vaguely know of Middle East, Armenian, and Arabic traditions through neighbors and friends... all of whom left and seem not to desire to return. None of them are particularly religious - certainly not in the conservative/fundementalist implementions - so some of those beliefs I asked about, whether actual or stereotypical, don't seem to apply to them. In fact, it seems that all of them are more interested in a good kebab than they are interested in orthodox traditions. :smile:

I'm quite sure that you are correct that there are regional differences and did not know that it is quite rare. Thank you for the education.
 
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RezaLoghme

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"Middle East, Armenian, and Arabic"- very different pairs of shoes...we also have Maghreb, Levante, etc. And does "Arab" mean UAE, the guys with white AMGs? From member states of the Arab League, like Somalis? Same goes for kebab - that can be so many things, including the German variant. Souvlaki, lula/khorovats, koobideh, shish taouk, iskender, chapli...
 

BrianShaw

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"Middle East, Armenian, and Arabic"- very different pairs of shoes...we also have Maghreb, Levante, etc. And does "Arab" mean UAE, the guys with white AMGs? From member states of the Arab League, like Somalis? Same goes for kebab - that can be so many things, including the German variant. Souvlaki, lula/khorovats, koobideh, shish taouk, iskender, chapli...

I know that you are right, on all accounts. VERY different shoes. I'm sure that you are right about things we've never even written about. My point was not to expand the discussion into details of the various ethnicities, nationalities, religions, or sausages... but to answer the question you asked and to tell you how little I really know about the Caucauses and Central Asia. Just a factual anser with no subtext either. That's all...

Regarding film, I also endorse FP4+ heartily.
 
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RezaLoghme

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Today my Leica 28mm lense for my other camera arrived. This thread is in the analog section, so I am not going to elaborate much further on how I am going to use it with the SL body.

What will happen today is another test run, at the weekly protest of that group, with the added complexity of rain and overcast sky. I will take the 553ELX and all the usual gear and film. Last weekend one elderly gentleman approached me and complimented me on my SL. He remembered me from another protest shooting and talked about how is father - way back then in their home country - had a Hasselblad 500C (he remembered the exact model name) and how they had to sell it in order to drum up cash for their one-way flight.

Let's see what today brings.
 
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RezaLoghme

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It was ok, more luck than anything else. While i am on nodding, cigarette-borrowing and handshaking terms with a few of the poor souls who are organizing these protests, some of the participants approach me again and again, asking me what is going to happen with my pics.

The weather did not help, and the setup of the protest is tricky (busy location). Last time i tried a tele lens but instead of isolating the main object, it made a mess out of the crowded scenery. This time, the wide angle gave a lot empty foreground.

I have covered the protest-y side of things quite well. Clenched fists, banners, etc. Now I am keeping my eyes open for small things happening on the side. It is not so easy - I am very distracted and need to find a way how to be calm and aware of my surroundings.
 
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Alex Benjamin

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It was ok, more luck than anything else. While i am on nodding, cigarette-borrowing and handshaking terms with a few of the poor souls who are organizing these protests, some of the participants approach me again and again, asking me what is going to happen with my pics.

The weather did not help, and the setup of the protest is tricky (busy location). Last time i tried a tele lens but instead of isolating the main object, it made a mess out of the crowded scenery. This time, the wide angle gave a lot empty foreground.

I have covered the protest-y side of things quite well. Clenched fists, banners, etc. Now I am keeping my eyes open for small things happening on the side. It is not so easy - I am very distracted and need to find a way how to be calm and aware of my surroundings.

Since your original question regarding gear and film has essentielly been answered, and you now seem to be focused on the difficulties related to shooting this protest, perhaps you should start a new thread solely on this subject in the "Photojournalism and documentary" sub-forum.
 
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RezaLoghme

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Hello Alex

Thank you for your continued interest in this topic and thread. Further questions about gear will certainly come, and to ensure continuity, adequate dissemination of knowledge, and inclusivity, the thread will continue to be populated with my posts.

Please feel free to revisit the thread as it further develops; if you are not interested in the topic, it will be a pity to lose you as a reader and contributer.
 

Alex Benjamin

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Hello Alex

Thank you for your continued interest in this topic and thread. Further questions about gear will certainly come, and to ensure continuity, adequate dissemination of knowledge, and inclusivity, the thread will continue to be populated with my posts.

Please feel free to revisit the thread as it further develops; if you are not interested in the topic, it will be a pity to lose you as a reader and contributer.

Not that interested in the thread, actually. You seem to have everything pretty much under control. I just glance once and a while hoping to see picks 😀.
 

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So happy to see you've gotten to the action part of this project and beyond the (over)thinking 😁. This is where it all is!

It was ok, more luck than anything else. While i am on nodding, cigarette-borrowing and handshaking terms with a few of the poor souls who are organizing these protests, some of the participants approach me again and again, asking me what is going to happen with my pics.
I'd nurture those interactions. It sounds like you're being seen, recognized and building trust. There's a potential for other doors to open and more meaningful connections for your project 👏

The weather did not help, and the setup of the protest is tricky (busy location). Last time i tried a tele lens but instead of isolating the main object, it made a mess out of the crowded scenery. This time, the wide angle gave a lot empty foreground.
Learning opportunities galore!

I have covered the protest-y side of things quite well. Clenched fists, banners, etc. Now I am keeping my eyes open for small things happening on the side. It is not so easy - I am very distracted and need to find a way how to be calm and aware of my surroundings.
That's how it usually goes for me in my occasional demonstration shooting. Walk around, get the "This is what the profs do" shots, get those out of my systems and then start looking for what touches me. The more I do it and the more I review my shots, the more I find meaningful themes (some of them surprise me!) that open up other doors. Trust your instinct and the process. You're finding your way.
 
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