Back in June 2018, the Ferrania Folks hoped to be in continuous production by Fall

My understanding is that all backers were informed in 2016 that the plans to deliver the rewards as originally intended were axed. Those who had asked for E6 films of any type as a reward were given two choices....P30 135 instead or "wait until we're in a position to offer the E6 film (possibly years) and we'll offer something then." I didn't take a great deal of notice as I only backed them sufficiently to get the signed postcard. But that is my recollection. The message was sent out to everyone who contributed to the kickstarter, was broadcast here and on their website...no doubt elsewhere too. I don't understand how anyone with an interest didn't see it.

Going forward, I found P30 in 135 to be quite unique and I should think that in 120 it will be a minor game changer. It's effectively going to have no grain unless you enlarge to insane sizes. It's got a beautiful look and I'm certainly going to buy some in 120. I've recently restarted shooting std 8mm cine film too, so anything they can produce in this format is of interest - especially reversal film in colour or in B&W at different speeds to Fomapan R100. And I'd be curious if Ferrania ever do 127, as I have a couple of little 127 cameras (one a Ferrania product itself) which are hardly high end but are fun and cute. Generally I like playing with new films, though I do have my favourites. And I understand that Film Ferrania are unlikely to be able to offer anything substantially cheaper than Harman or Kodak.

Agulliver said:

My understanding is that all backers were informed in 2016 that the plans to deliver the rewards as originally intended were axed. Those who had asked for E6 films of any type as a reward were given two choices....P30 135 instead or "wait until we're in a position to offer the E6 film (possibly years) and we'll offer something then." I didn't take a great deal of notice as I only backed them sufficiently to get the signed postcard. But that is my recollection. The message was sent out to everyone who contributed to the kickstarter, was broadcast here and on their website...no doubt elsewhere too. I don't understand how anyone with an interest didn't see it.

Going forward, I found P30 in 135 to be quite unique and I should think that in 120 it will be a minor game changer. It's effectively going to have no grain unless you enlarge to insane sizes. It's got a beautiful look and I'm certainly going to buy some in 120. I've recently restarted shooting std 8mm cine film too, so anything they can produce in this format is of interest - especially reversal film in colour or in B&W at different speeds to Fomapan R100. And I'd be curious if Ferrania ever do 127, as I have a couple of little 127 cameras (one a Ferrania product itself) which are hardly high end but are fun and cute. Generally I like playing with new films, though I do have my favourites. And I understand that Film Ferrania are unlikely to be able to offer anything substantially cheaper than Harman or Kodak.

Click to expand...

I don't remember the rewards being 'axed'. I thought it was being delayed. If they can't offer the colour reversal film within a reasonable time, I would have thought they should refund at some point. I know they've had problems but the P30 was three (?) years ago now and they never even mention the colour film any more. The website is all spin.

mr.datsun said:

I don't remember the rewards being 'axed'. I thought it was being delayed. If they can't offer the colour reversal film within a reasonable time, I would have thought they should refund at some point. I know they've had problems but the P30 was three (?) years ago now and they never even mention the colour film any more. The website is all spin.

Click to expand...

I think that Agulliver's understanding in the previous email above is correct, i.e. there was an option of having some P30 film immediately, or waiting longer for the colour film. I opted for the latter, but, as you say, this was three years ago, and the colour film now looks even further away, if ever.....it really is about time that Ferrania rewarded the patience of their supporters, and, at least, tried to regain a modicum of goodwill by offering the P30 option again.

Agulliver said:

My understanding is that all backers were informed in 2016 that the plans to deliver the rewards as originally intended were axed. Those who had asked for E6 films of any type as a reward were given two choices....P30 135 instead or "wait until we're in a position to offer the E6 film (possibly years) and we'll offer something then." I didn't take a great deal of notice as I only backed them sufficiently to get the signed postcard. But that is my recollection. The message was sent out to everyone who contributed to the kickstarter, was broadcast here and on their website...no doubt elsewhere too. I don't understand how anyone with an interest didn't see it.

Click to expand...

This actually isn't very accurate. Ferrania never openly stated that plans to deliver a color slide film were "axed". They DID indicate that P30 needed to come first, but strongly suggested that color slide film WAS going to be made. Furthermore, in February 2017 their options were:

1. Keep the color slide film "rewards" and wait for it to be made and also have the option to buy P30 film at a discount (along with some other benefits I'll explain below)
2. Swap the original color slide film "rewards" for P30

Ferrania VERY MUCH ENCOURAGED backers to keep their original "rewards". In fact, their exact words were: "We urgently, but most humbly request that you KEEP your original reward". They even introduced a "Friends of Film" program as an added benefit that has yet to materialize, and that was only available to backers that kept the original "rewards". Well, that's not exactly true either, because then they later announced that the "Friends of Film" program was going to be extended to ALL kickstarter backers...

Going back to this statement Dave Bias from Ferrania made earlier:

"No we have not, although yes, we were forced to abandon the Ferraniachrome project that was to be delivered to Kickstarters. We said so way back in Feb 2016 in a post to Backers and also on our website."

This would be the first time that Ferrania has clearly stated the "Ferraniachrome" project has been abandoned/axed/cancelled/etc. Furthermore, in all honesty, I'd love to see some quote from Ferrania from 2016 where they clear state "we have been forced to abandon the Ferraniachrome project", especially considering just a year later they were basically begging/bribing people to keep their original "rewards" and their patience would be rewarded with color slide film along with some other nice benefits.

There seems to be a lot of people that are OK with someone receiving Kickstarter money and then never fulfilling their obligations to their backers. The Kickstarter money Ferrania received was CLEARLY for producing color slide film. Again, directly quoted from the Ferrania Kickstarter:

"All film rewards are limited due to our small production capacity with the current setup. If you are interested in a reward, get it now!

The reward levels are priced to allow us to create this batch, ship it to you, and have enough left over to purchase the remaining machinery that is most crucial to our long-term success."

They also, quite strongly, insist in the Kickstarter that there was basically a 0% chance of not receiving the "Ferraniachrome"...:

"The only risk is not reaching our goal.

Upon success, your risk practically vanishes. Testing is already underway at our mini-factory and we WILL produce one limited-size film batch on the schedule shown above. We have all of the materials we need, and we have given ourselves ample time to get it right.

Our team is ready to create the rewards, box them up and ship them to you with efficiency and professionalism. We have experience with high-volume Kickstarter campaigns. We are confident that we are ready for just about anything..."

Now, I totally understand that unforeseen things pop up, and that production schedules can get thrown out the window. But this definitely seems to be a case of hubris coming back to haunt them...

Burninfilm said:

Now, I totally understand that unforeseen things pop up, and that production schedules can get thrown out the window. But this definitely seems to be a case of hubris coming back to haunt them...

Click to expand...

no one expects the Spanish Inquision, and likwise no one can understand the risks of dealing with the Italian government.

Agulliver said:

My understanding is that all backers were informed in 2016 that the plans to deliver the rewards as originally intended were axed. Those who had asked for E6 films of any type as a reward were given two choices....P30 135 instead or "wait until we're in a position to offer the E6 film (possibly years) and we'll offer something then."
And I understand that Film Ferrania are unlikely to be able to offer anything substantially cheaper than Harman or Kodak.

Click to expand...

yes, the money WAS primarily intended to keep the equipment out of the scrap yard. the old hands thought that they could make a batch of film (a small one) and mail it out for a small portion of the funds raised. This idea hit several brick walls! The delay meant that some of the material that they were planning to use went out of date, (after raw components were used to make intermediates).

My fingers and toes are crossed that once they get going, they will be able to provide those of us who made the decision to wait with SOMETHING that will inspire and spark joy. I think I originally asked for 2 rolls of 35mm and 2 rolls of 120, at least partly inspired by wanting to see what Ferrania Backing paper might look like, as I have never made 120 slides. So far I did get my Postcards, and I did get to order 5 rolls of P30 at a lower price (still a premium price after shippiing ) than it subsequently sold at, although it did turn out that the factory not being in as good condition as they thought meant that the P30 ended up being a money loser.

It least the wait has been entertaining. although all the bellyaches from folks looking for cheep film can get on one's nerves after a while.

cmacd123 said:

no one expects the Spanish Inquision, and likwise no one can understand the risks of dealing with the Italian government.

Click to expand...

No inquisition... just pointing out some facts based on Ferrania's own statements/actions, and asking for Ferrania to clarify a comment they made about axing the "Ferraniachrome project". I'm genuinely curious to hear if the "Ferraniachrome project" has truly been cancelled, and where that was ever stated to Kickstarter backers. It certainly wasn't ever stated before 2017, as was indicated by the Ferrania rep.

I'm guessing he meant the original plan for producing color slide film had to be scrapped and a new plan put into place. Like I said, just wanting to know what he meant by his earlier comment.

FILM Ferrania said:

...

By the time sales restart, our 120 film (yes!) will be entirely in-house.
...

Click to expand...

Wow! You´re making great progress. Must be a lot of work to get 120 entirely in-house.

Burninfilm said:

...

There seems to be a lot of people that are OK with someone receiving Kickstarter money and then never fulfilling their obligations to their backers. The Kickstarter money Ferrania received was CLEARLY for producing color slide film.
...

Click to expand...

Let´s assume for a minute the money would have been for producing color slide film, why then have they been talking about saving equipment in their kickstarter, like:

"We are FILM Ferrania and we are in the process of building a new kind of analog film factory in northern Italy. To be viable for the long-term, this factory must be self-contained - producing finished still photo and motion picture products from nothing more than raw materials.

We have a plan to make this happen, but we need your help to get over a pretty serious obstacle.

We have set up our new operations in the former Ferrania Research & Development (L.R.F.) building, which contains a miniature film production line. Our team has been working for more than a year to refurbish and re-engineer this building to prepare it to start. We can make film from this facility, but only a small amount - at a high cost.

We have created an ambitious new factory design that will allow us to produce enough film, at a reasonable price, to meet worldwide demand. We have already rescued tons of equipment (quite literally) from the old Ferrania buildings - but we need more and we are out of time. The buildings will be destroyed at the end of this year.

To truly be self-contained and ready for the next 100 years, we must save Trixie, Walter and Big Boy."

Why did they talk about that when the money was for slide film?
Why not just say "We´ll make you some slide film if you give us some money" ?

...because they needed the money to save the equipment and so they did.

They didn´t need money to buy raw materials to make slide film, because they had them raw materials allready. Left over from previous production. All they had to do to produce color film was to "dust off" the equipment, pour the raw materials into the machines and wait for slide film to roll out of the machines.
This is simplified of course but they would not have needed a lot of money for that - and that´s why they´ve been talking about saving equipment in their kickstarter, because that´s what they needed the money for.

But, just for a minute, let´s assume that they really intentionally did lie. What have they done so far? Did they took the money and went to Vegas?
They´re still at it, they allready have shown that they can make a B&W-film at least and they´re still aiming at the initial goal which is slide film by a self-contained factory.
So even if they did lie, it still was a benefit for the analog community, because having another film-factory capable of making color film in times when most producers close down and/or reduce their factories is a very good thing.

And it doesn´t seem like they did lie. And that´s why a lot of backers are ok with how things have proceeded so far... ...because the money was for saving equipment and building a self-contained factory.

I realize this can be a huge topis, but Kickstarter...... is there some kind of "Written Guarantee" associated with that.?
I thought it was more or less a Good Will type of a thing.......here is 35 dollars, i hope you guys do well.
Is there any kind of Legal Obligation attached to Kickstarter Money.?

The money was clearly, transparently *donated* on order for Film Ferrania to save machines and eventually reinstall them in the LRF. Nobody has order or paid for E6 film. Film Ferrania and Kickstarter have no obligation to refund anyone. This frankly bizarre notion that people were ordering film and are entitled to either film or a refund is incomprehensible to me. Film Ferrania saved said machines, and are in the process of reinstating them in the LRF. Not that Kickstarter projects are ever subject to refunds but in this case the company has actually done exactly what it said it would with the Kickstarter funds.

As I understand it, and perhaps Dave can clarify....the "Ferraniachrome Project" was the brief window where they hoped to produce the rewards in 2015. That project is dead. The long term plan to produce E6 film in addition to B&W and possibly C41 is still alive.

Agulliver said:

The money was clearly, transparently *donated* on order for Film Ferrania to save machines and eventually reinstall them in the LRF. Nobody has order or paid for E6 film. Film Ferrania and Kickstarter have no obligation to refund anyone. This frankly bizarre notion that people were ordering film and are entitled to either film or a refund is incomprehensible to me. Film Ferrania saved said machines, and are in the process of reinstating them in the LRF. Not that Kickstarter projects are ever subject to refunds but in this case the company has actually done exactly what it said it would with the Kickstarter funds.
.

Click to expand...

You are quite correct, of course, backing of all Kickstarter projects is a "donation", and there is no "guarantee" of rewards, or, indeed, that a particular project will succeed. However, in being solicited to make "donation" to any project or cause, even a charity, contributors should not be misled as to what they are supporting, or the prospects of success.

I think that there is a feeling that Ferrania were somewhat over-optimistic, perhaps to the extent of misleading some people, and certainly to the extent that making the first "batch" of Ferraniachrome was presented as simple and just a matter of a month or two. In turn, this suggested that ongoing film manufacture would not to "too" difficult ?

Would Ferrania have had the same financial support if it has been presented as just a fund to save machines, with no real indication of the long-term prospects ? TBH, I doubt it ? And I can't help but wonder, sometimes, (and now understanding just what is involved in running a successful film factory, through such as Ilford visits and videos and Adox's postings) if we might have been supporting a "vanity" project ? IDK ?

Can I ask a quick question, please.
Has anyone seen a video of the P30 production?
I have searched but I can't find one. Surely such a milestone would have been recorded.

It was presented as a fund to save the machines. With the long term goal to be continuous production of film. They were totally transparent about their intentions and the purpose of the funding. I don't know why people might have felt it was easier than it is. I'm no expert but I knew at the start that at best it would be three years before they got everything running. The shenanigans with the Italian government has probably doubled that....again not a huge surprise even from my ivory tower in East Anglia. Furthermore, Film Ferrania were communicating all the hurdles and hiccups at every stage so it was not difficult to put the picture together.

Regarding videos....I don't think one can easily make a video of something being produced in total darkness. On the Ferrania end, there probably wasn't anything very exciting to film. As I understand it the P30 Alpha was slit and converted into 135 by another company. Film Ferrania did produce videos of the machines they saved.

Agulliver said:

The money was clearly, transparently *donated* on order for Film Ferrania to save machines and eventually reinstall them in the LRF. Nobody has order or paid for E6 film. Film Ferrania and Kickstarter have no obligation to refund anyone. This frankly bizarre notion that people were ordering film and are entitled to either film or a refund is incomprehensible to me. Film Ferrania saved said machines, and are in the process of reinstating them in the LRF. Not that Kickstarter projects are ever subject to refunds but in this case the company has actually done exactly what it said it would with the Kickstarter funds.

As I understand it, and perhaps Dave can clarify....the "Ferraniachrome Project" was the brief window where they hoped to produce the rewards in 2015. That project is dead. The long term plan to produce E6 film in addition to B&W and possibly C41 is still alive.

Click to expand...

No, again, Ferrania said the money was to be used to produce, package, and ship the first batch of film to backers. Then the LEFTOVER money would be used to purchase the equipment. I’m not making this up. FERRANIA SAID THAT. However, I do totally agree that people shouldn’t expect a refund if Ferrania goes completely bust before producing some film.

The issue is they aren’t going bust, they ARE (supposedly) still trying to produce film, but they don’t appear to be planning on delivering on their Kickstarter obligations with color slide film.

Personally, I say they just cancel the whole color slide film idea (it looks to be years away from happening anyway),offer a 2-for-1 exchange of P30/“Ferraniachrome” (or 1-for-1 and something like a lifetime 10% or 20% discount at the Ferrania e-store), say thanks to the Kickstarters for their support, and move on. Or close up shop.

My understanding is that they wanted to save the machines, then reward donators with E6 film... They already had the materials in the building, but needed the machines. How could they make anything at all without the machines? They'll get there, eventually...

The way I read it the funds were primarily for purchasing the equipment. The rewards were rolled into that, for obvious reasons, but it was quite clear the funds were for equipment.

In the recent posts to this forum, it was stated the original plan (meaning time-line) was scrapped, not the production of slide film in general.

I backed it so they would have the equipment and be in a position of long-term production; this would not only benefit me personally, but benefit film photographers in general. I have no idea how difficult the task is, but imagined it was more complex than they had predicted, so I was quite prepared for a delay when I backed the project.

The only thing I wish I did differently was to back a different package, but at the time I didn't realize I'd become interested in using my father's Super 8 and grandfather's 8mm movie cameras.

I may be a bit of an outlier in that I'd enjoy stupid little updates, like "We painted the front desk today" type of stuff. That would probably anger more people than would find it interesting, so it's probably best they stay silent until things start rolling.

Agulliver said:

Regarding videos....I don't think one can easily make a video of something being produced in total darkness. On the Ferrania end, there probably wasn't anything very exciting to film. As I understand it the P30 Alpha was slit and converted into 135 by another company. Film Ferrania did produce videos of the machines they saved.

Click to expand...

all the postings that have been made are on the main http://www.filmferrania.it/news site.

Heck, there is even one showing making film (just not current film) at https://player.vimeo.com/video/103156435?wmode=opaque&api=1

Nitrate base and festoon drying! How nice to see a slice of the past.

PE

Photo Engineer said:

Nitrate base and festoon drying! How nice to see a slice of the past.
PE

Click to expand...

As I said - NOT CURRENT Production.

Nostalgia kicking in. Sorry Charles.

It seems to me they’ve run into a lot of obstacles in their attempt to bring their film to market, but still have the commitment to succeed. Personally, I’d rather they delay releasing the film rather than put out a product which doesn’t meet their ( or our) standards.

Burninfilm said:

No, again, Ferrania said the money was to be used to produce, package, and ship the first batch of film to backers. Then the LEFTOVER money would be used to purchase the equipment. I’m not making this up. FERRANIA SAID THAT. However, I do totally agree that people shouldn’t expect a refund if Ferrania goes completely bust before producing some film.

The issue is they aren’t going bust, they ARE (supposedly) still trying to produce film, but they don’t appear to be planning on delivering on their Kickstarter obligations with color slide film.

Personally, I say they just cancel the whole color slide film idea (it looks to be years away from happening anyway),offer a 2-for-1 exchange of P30/“Ferraniachrome” (or 1-for-1 and something like a lifetime 10% or 20% discount at the Ferrania e-store), say thanks to the Kickstarters for their support, and move on. Or close up shop.

Click to expand...

1. Please provide a source for your assertion that Ferrania said the Kickstarter donations were to produce the reward film. I strongly believe you are wrong and that they sated clearly and unambiguously that the donations were to save the machinery, re-install it in the LRF. However, if I have missed something or misunderstood please direct me to the words you are stating that Film Ferrania said or published. My recollection (and FYI the page is still there on Kickstarter) is that the funds were donated in order to save three machines named Trixie, Walter and Big Boy. They even stated explicitly that "backing the project is not simply pre-purchasing film".

2. They have no obligations with regard to colour slide film. INdeed they have no obligations at all. That's not how Kickstarter campaigns work. Read the T&C.

Agulliver said:

1. Please provide a source for your assertion that Ferrania said the Kickstarter donations were to produce the reward film. I strongly believe you are wrong and that they sated clearly and unambiguously that the donations were to save the machinery, re-install it in the LRF. However, if I have missed something or misunderstood please direct me to the words you are stating that Film Ferrania said or published. My recollection (and FYI the page is still there on Kickstarter) is that the funds were donated in order to save three machines named Trixie, Walter and Big Boy. They even stated explicitly that "backing the project is not simply pre-purchasing film".

2. They have no obligations with regard to colour slide film. INdeed they have no obligations at all. That's not how Kickstarter campaigns work. Read the T&C.

Click to expand...

Here ya go!

1. I actually quoted almost word for word from the official Film Ferrania Kickstarter page. They also have a little "BUDGET" pie chart and description that specifically says the money was budgeted to purchase machinery and to get the film to the backers (for those that are curious, at least $60,000 was budgeted for this, so not an insignificant sum). I've actually quoted this part here a few times, but here it goes again:

"All film rewards are limited due to our small production capacity with the current setup. If you are interested in a reward, get it now!

The reward levels are priced to allow us to create this batch, ship it to you, and have enough left over to purchase the remaining machinery that is most crucial to our long-term success."

2. Directly quoted from the Kickstarter website:

When a project is successfully funded, the creator is responsible for completing the project and fulfilling each reward. Their fundamental obligation to backers is to finish all the work that was promised. Once a creator has done so, they’ve fulfilled their obligation to their backers.

Now, it IS true that there is NO part of a Kickstarter campaign that is legally binding, so sure, Ferrania could totally never deliver and there is no legal requirement that they make refunds. But... it's pretty damn shady to do that.


If you read the Kickstarter page very carefully, Ferrania does EVERYTHING possible to make it seem like the Ferraniachrome was a sure thing, and that backers didn't need to worry about not receiving anything:

"Risks and challenges
The only risk is not reaching our goal.

Upon success, your risk practically vanishes. Testing is already underway at our mini-factory and we WILL produce one limited-size film batch on the schedule shown above. We have all of the materials we need, and we have given ourselves ample time to get it right.

Our team is ready to create the rewards, box them up and ship them to you with efficiency and professionalism. We have experience with high-volume Kickstarter campaigns. We are confident that we are ready for just about anything..."

Kino said:

View attachment 227251

Click to expand...

LOL! Yeah, probably am