Black and white reversal processing?

[Alessandro Serrao]

For the record, it's obvious that any modern B&W film will be a combination of different silver halide configurations that vary in speed and spectral sensitivity. Whether it's very useful to distinguish two, specifically, I couldn't say.

We are speculating about Fomapan 100R, not any modern B&W film.
We actually don't know how many layers or emulsion this film is made of.

 

[ChrisGalway]

We are speculating about Fomapan 100R, not any modern B&W film.
We actually don't know how many layers or emulsion this film is made of.

Just for interest, when was Fomopan R first made? And I wonder where the line is between "modern" and "old" films ... 1980s when T-grain films were first marketed?

 

[1957ExaktaVarexIIa]

When you'll able, get the Adox kit: it's as good as the Foma's but at half the cost.

It's even much more cheap to use this DIY process by Friedemann Wachsmuth (sorry the website is in German).
Nowadays Dokumol/Eukobrom developer can be replaced by Ilford PQ Universal. I have not yet done so but I will sometime - just have to check the correct time for PQ als a first developer.

I have developed about 50 films with it (mostly Fomapan R100, some Rollei Infrared 400 also, still in Dokumol) and it's a pleasure . Costs about 1 US$ per film roll.

 

[Ivo Stunga]

PQ has dramatically increased in price - as everything else pretty much, but yes. One can reverse a film for about a dollar.

 

[Yezishu]

I was thing the same, but processing in also a little more involved with transparency/slides. I have two nice 35mm stereo cameras, viewers and complete Realist slide mounting kit. I just might try my hand at processing a few rolls as B&W slides to see the results. Who knows, I might just like it?

These are great tools, and definitely worth to try. Just pay some attention to exposure, you can not only obtain replicable digital images but also enjoy extra physical slides and projection images.

 

[Yezishu]

Seems like everytime I look for Adox products, my normal US suppliers never have any. Right now, Freestyle is showing "out of stock" for the Adox reversal kit, and the Scala 50 film, and the CHS 100 II. B&H has some Adox Scala 50 film, but no Adox reversal chemistry.

Normally, I prefer to shoot films which I can expose at EI 100 (or preferably higher). I might be willing to try some Scala 50 if I can get good results metering at ISO 50. However, if it needs more exposure than box speed, I probably won't have enough patience to shoot it.

No time to watch the video today -- I have too much stuff to do in real life right now. So I will have to wait another day to do more research. Thanks for your advice.

I recommend Fomapan 400 (Light gray film base but it doesn't have much impact.), which can be exposed at EI 200 and developed as a reversal at ISO 3200. There is a formula on Reddit (search "First and second attempt at B&W reversal" ), and I successfully replicated it.

 

[NiallerM]

I developed a roll of Rollei 400 yesterday and it reversed quite nicely. Strongish contrasts, but they look good on the screen. It was the first time I'd tried out reversal on a film stock not marked for that purpose. It did, of course, come on a clear(ish) film base.

No matter how often I develop reversal I still feel somewhat daring when I expose for a second time. It just feels so counter to all of the protections I use in developing.

 

[ChrisGalway]

Reversal processing is so satisfying!

What kit / process did you use, and what was the 1st Development time/temperature?

 

[NiallerM]

Reversal processing is so satisfying!

What kit / process did you use, and what was the 1st Development time/temperature?

I used the Fomapan R kit with all chemistry at room temperature (19/20°)! It really was very straightforward, although I wasn't as positive as I should have been with the exposure after the bleach step I mean in handling it and having it in the light long enough. I'm still somewhat timorous in that regard. I shouldn't be, I know. If the bleach has done its job, the risk is low.

And, yes. Absolutely. It's such a rewarding process. I enoy it a lot.

 

[Ivo Stunga]

Every film can be BW reversed. Marketing has no say over it

Unshackle yourselves!

 

[Ivo Stunga]

I developed a roll of Rollei 400 yesterday and it reversed quite nicely. Strongish contrasts, but they look good on the screen

The ISO 400 is a gross negligence/poor storytelling on Rollei part. It's a respooled Aerial film with about 100 ISO for pictorial contrast.

Try it at ~100 or 200, reduce 1st dev time accordingly and enjoy better slides!

 

[NiallerM]

The ISO 400 is a gross negligence/poor storytelling on Rollei part. It's a respooled Aerial film with about 100 ISO for pictorial contrast.

Try it at ~100 or 200, reduce 1st dev time accordingly and enjoy better slides!

Aye. I went for the lower figure. Some of what I'd read about it suggested to treat it as having an even lower ISO - down to 50. I no longer trust box speed for any film anyway. I always check for user experience on the web now. The sale of it at 400 does seem a bit excessive, though.

 

[Ivo Stunga]

Aye. I went for the lower figure. Some of what I'd read about it suggested to treat it as having an even lower ISO - down to 50. I no longer trust box speed for any film anyway. I always check for user experience on the web now. The sale of it at 400 does seem a bit excessive, though.

Yup. {Moderator's deletion of political comment} "Trust, but verify" doesn't event work today. Just "Verify"remains

Aye. I went for the lower figure. Some of what I'd read about it suggested to treat it as having an even lower ISO - down to 50

Certainly can be done, but I personally wouldn't go so low with Aviphot 200 derivatives for everyday shooting, but Pull Processing is a thing after all.

 

[NiallerM]

Yup. *******"Trust, but verify" doesn't event work today. Just "Verify"remains


Certainly can be done, but I personally wouldn't go so low with Aviphot 200 derivatives for everyday shooting, but Pull Processing is a thing after all.

Yup. I played for 200 in the end. I got a few rolls very cheap and this one was wa sort of in the "test" category. I know. Testing film for something as generally tight as reversal is probably not a great idea, but...

 

[Yezishu]

Yup. I played for 200 in the end. I got a few rolls very cheap and this one was wa sort of in the "test" category. I know. Testing film for something as generally tight as reversal is probably not a great idea, but...

I think testing is just about taking photos with different exposures, cutting it into several sections and developing until a set of usable parameters is found. As the detailed tutorial from Ivo Stunga.
The main issue is that for poorly expired film, the next batch you buy might have spent several summers in a hot garage, causing the required parameters to differ from this one and necessitating a retest.

 

[NiallerM]

I think testing is just about taking photos with different exposures, cutting it into several sections and developing until a set of usable parameters is found. As the detailed tutorial from Ivo Stunga.
The main issue is that for poorly expired film, the next batch you buy might have spent several summers in a hot garage, causing the required parameters to differ from this one and necessitating a retest.

Well, I bracketed the exposures with this roll. I tend not to test too many parameters at once. I'm quite lucky in that my supplier uses fridges, but yes, you're at the mercu of a process with variables all down the line, and there's no guarantees as to how it was handled at each stage.

 

[Samu]

It's even much more cheap to use this DIY process by Friedemann Wachsmuth (sorry the website is in German).
Nowadays Dokumol/Eukobrom developer can be replaced by Ilford PQ Universal. I have not yet done so but I will sometime - just have to check the correct time for PQ als a first developer.

I have developed about 50 films with it (mostly Fomapan R100, some Rollei Infrared 400 also, still in Dokumol) and it's a pleasure . Costs about 1 US$ per film roll.

Unfortunately, there are new regulations in the EU. making the ingredients for bleach hard to get. Sulfuric acid is almost impossible to buy. Anything 15% or more is prohibited for retail, and chemical companies don´t have 10% available. Also, potassium permanganate is listed as a schedule II narcotics precursor, and buying any quantities more than 5-10 g from a pharmacy will need a lots of paperwork. Even in a pharmacy, you will get strange looks. Maybe they prohibit dihydrogen oxide (H2O) next year, as it has many illegal uses too...

 

[lamerko]

Unfortunately, there are new regulations in the EU. making the ingredients for bleach hard to get. Sulfuric acid is almost impossible to buy. Anything 15% or more is prohibited for retail, and chemical companies don´t have 10% available. Also, potassium permanganate is listed as a schedule II narcotics precursor, and buying any quantities more than 5-10 g from a pharmacy will need a lots of paperwork. Even in a pharmacy, you will get strange looks. Maybe they prohibit dihydrogen oxide (H2O) next year, as it has many illegal uses too...

Yes, this regulation thing sucks, especially since it doesn't actually stop those who want to abuse it.
I talked to a household chemicals supplier - he told me that in fact I can get many of the things as a "finished product", but not as chemical reagents. For example, potassium permanganate 100% without impurities can be taken as a disinfectant for seeds and greenhouses. Here in Bulgaria, sulfuric acid cannot be taken as such - regardless of the concentration. If you have access to 10% - it will do the trick. However, here it is not a particular problem to put on some work pants and take a 5 liter can of battery electrolyte - the situation is saved

 

[Samu]

Yes, this regulation thing sucks, especially since it doesn't actually stop those who want to abuse it.
I talked to a household chemicals supplier - he told me that in fact I can get many of the things as a "finished product", but not as chemical reagents. For example, potassium permanganate 100% without impurities can be taken as a disinfectant for seeds and greenhouses. Here in Bulgaria, sulfuric acid cannot be taken as such - regardless of the concentration. If you have access to 10% - it will do the trick. However, here it is not a particular problem to put on some work pants and take a 5 liter can of battery electrolyte - the situation is saved

Here, in Lithuania, you can buy it freely, if you are a farmer. Unless you are not, it is 10g from a pharmacy, with the looks "do you need syringes too". Otherwise, you must sign a paper about the use, have a registered company, and hire a guard to watch the premisen 24/7. Sulfuric acid is impossible. For over 15%, a license, which is impossible to get, is needes, and nobody selle under it. And of course, farmers can also buy this without restrictions. All the drain cleaners that were sulfuric acid have been withdrawn, and everything sold is alkaline. But yes, if it is called a developing kit.

Battery electrolyte is illegal, because it is over 15% H2SO4. It can be sold only to registered companies and to farmers. 10% is allowed, but not sold by anyone. For some reason, our chemical companies refuse all sales of sulfuric acid, even though it is allowed by law. It seems like Bulgaria took a bit more lax attitude in implementing these directives. Two years ago, you could buy a drain cleaner with 30% H2SO4 in any shop. but for now, the chemical is impossible to buy for a private person in any form in this country.

 

[lamerko]

It seems that the directives are interpreted differently in different countries. Here, for example, something is either prohibited or not - I can't buy sulfuric acid even 5%, I've tried to order dilution from a specialized company. Prohibited and that's it. With permanganate too - prohibited and that's it - you can't even take 5 grams. Well, apparently there's no problem taking 100 grams as a remedy against slugs... At the same time, in countries like Germany it's apparently more liberal. Suvatlar sells everything you need - sulfuric and hydrochloric acid, permanganate... I don't remember how many orders I've made from there.

 

[NiallerM]

Unfortunately, there are new regulations in the EU. making the ingredients for bleach hard to get. Sulfuric acid is almost impossible to buy. Anything 15% or more is prohibited for retail, and chemical companies don´t have 10% available. Also, potassium permanganate is listed as a schedule II narcotics precursor, and buying any quantities more than 5-10 g from a pharmacy will need a lots of paperwork. Even in a pharmacy, you will get strange looks. Maybe they prohibit dihydrogen oxide (H2O) next year, as it has many illegal uses too...

It's good to be part-owner of a lab!

 

[Ivo Stunga]

In Latvia for example, one must have a legal entity/business to buy some angry chemicals. Make one or ask a friend, and zero problems.

100% KMnO4 here can be had in water treatment product stores - sold as ion-exchange filter supplies/consumable.

 

[NiallerM]

To reply more directly to the OP:

Reversal is really really enjoyable as a process. It's not complex. I can do it using a changing bag on the kitchen table. It doesn't require temperature control. The results are beautiful when you get it right.

Putting the technical aspects to one side: it is simply a fun way to develop. It takes you all the way to your end product too.

 

[Europan]

Just for interest, when was Fomopan R first made?

For the moment I can’t tell although I constantly do research on motion-picture film products. Around 1958, I think. Fotochema made an R 17, an R 21, and an R 24. With the abandonment of the slower as well as the faster emulsion the R 21 was renamed R 100. Or later.

Before being branded R for Reversal, Fotochema had a Fomapan Super 21° DIN film. This I take as a trace to Eastman-Kodak Super-X. It was named Fomapan 21 in the sixties.

Fotokemika’s Fortepan, 80 ASA, seems to have come directly from Rochester. And then you had Fotopan R 50 from Poland. Maybe also American.

 

[ChrisGalway]

For the moment I can’t tell although I constantly do research on motion-picture film products. Around 1958, I think. Fotochema made an R 17, an R 21, and an R 24. With the abandonment of the slower as well as the faster emulsion the R 21 was renamed R 100. Or later.

Before being branded R for Reversal, Fotochema had a Fomapan Super 21° DIN film. This I take as a trace to Eastman-Kodak Super-X. It was named Fomapan 21 in the sixties.

Fotokemika’s Fortepan, 80 ASA, seems to have come directly from Rochester. And then you had Fotopan R 50 from Poland. Maybe also American.

Thanks for this info. So, not a "modern" emulsion then ... unless they have reformulated it at some point.