Cool/Neutral Tone DIY Developer for Warm Tone Paper: Magic Compounds?

[Sal Santamaura]

...When I'm done with this, I'd be interested in replicating your results, though I wish you could do it with Se rather than Au...

Unfortunately, Se just doesn't cut it.

...Considering how expensive gold toner is (even if I scratch-mix it in the future), it's best to start off MGWT FB as cool as possible right out of the developer, so I'll be using Neutol NE with this paper. The other developers can probably be neutralized, but that would undoubtedly take more time in the toner and, consequently, more gold...

I had a "d'oh" moment upon awakening this morning. If toning time and gold uptake are related to how warm/green the print starts out, why didn't I develop in SE3 or SE6 to begin with? MGWT FB prints from those two are far closer to neutral than even Neutol NE. It would be interesting to trade off developer cost against gold expense. Something for another (cooler) time. My printing season has come to an end here.

 

[pdeeh]

May I ask - it's a genuine enquiry, no snippiness or sarcasm intended - if one wants a cool or neutral tone from a paper, why start with a WT type ?

Is it that there are characteristics of the Ilford WT paper unrelated to it's warmth that cannot be achieved with other cool or neutral tone papers?

 

[Sal Santamaura]

May I ask - it's a genuine enquiry, no snippiness or sarcasm intended - if one wants a cool or neutral tone from a paper, why start with a WT type ?

Is it that there are characteristics of the Ilford WT paper unrelated to it's warmth that cannot be achieved with other cool or neutral tone papers?

First, MGWT FB is the only Ilford paper that starts out with minimal optical brightening agents (OBAs) and does not "anchor" them, so what little there is can be washed out. I find OBAs, and the metamerism they induce, distasteful. One can pretty much rank Ilford's current FB offerings in order of OBA content, with MGWT FB at the bottom and MGCT FB exhibiting the most. I find MGCT FB rather garish in this respect.

Second, paper is one part of a film/developer/paper/developer system. After years of trying different combinations, I've found that MGWT FB is the only VC type whose curve shape works well with the Delta 100 negatives (in XTOL) I prefer to make. Galerie does too, and I like its slightly lower surface sheen better, but I don't seem to be able to produce perfectly consistent negatives and appreciate VC flexibility. There's also that Galerie OBA thing.

Finally, I find it easier to get solid low values from MGWT FB than other papers.

 

[pdeeh]

ta

 

[Rafal Lukawiecki]

Rafal, just thinking out loud (I was going to first suggest altering D-72 to use ascorbate instead of HQ as a starting point but I see you're already using a Dimezone-ascorbate formula). Have you tried substituting or including benzotriazole in DS-14?

Michael, I actually use a slight variation of DS14, which is a little more concentrated and it uses 0.3g/l of BTA. This is how I got it colder. Once I've printed my current lot and I've a bit more time to experiment, I plan to try a couple of other restrainers which I've already bought for this purpose. In the meantime, when I've my current show hanging in the gallery, I will take a step to evaluate if, perhaps, I could learn to like the existing results, because I do like other properties of this developer a lot.

 

[Rafal Lukawiecki]

May I ask - it's a genuine enquiry, no snippiness or sarcasm intended - if one wants a cool or neutral tone from a paper, why start with a WT type ?

It is a bit personal, like all of this stuff, but I'd add to Sal's important observation about the much lower level of UV-activated brighteners a few other reasons, which I value in MGWT: glossy surface (which I think Sal does not like being so glossy but I do), excellent DMax, superb handling when wet (durability too), pleasant base tone, good washing/fixing time properties, and consistency since I've started using it three years ago.

 

[Patrick Robert James]

One method you may want to investigate is bleach/redevelopment. Changing the bleach type should change the final tone by altering the silver, though I haven't tried this myself. I did read about this somewhere, but it was obscure and I don't remember where.

 

[brian steinberger]

One method you may want to investigate is bleach/redevelopment. Changing the bleach type should change the final tone by altering the silver, though I haven't tried this myself. I did read about this somewhere, but it was obscure and I don't remember where.

From Eddie Ephraums book Creative Elements. I've been meaning to try this technique with the new ilford classic paper to try and get a cold blue/black and just haven't gotten around to ordering up the chems yet.

 

[Patrick Robert James]

Michael, my understanding is that the bleach changes the silver during the re-halogenating process. I am not a chemistry expert by any means. The same process is responsible for different sepia tones with sepia toner for example. I do change bleaches to alter the tones of sepia toning.

There are quite a few different types of bleach as well if one searches old literature. For example, I found one once that had ammonia in it that was interesting, but I didn't write it down unfortunately. I am really terrible at taking notes. Rudman's Toning book has quite a few if I recall.

Another alternative is an intensifier like chromium. I have never tried that for a print but it should work.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I already made some comments on this thread about a thousand years ago. But gold tone's ability to produce a bluish tone generally works best
with normal developers, not cold ones. But you're still headed for a cul-de-sac, 'cause you need some exposure to both emulsion layers of a
VC paper, along with full development, to get a full DMax, and the two different layers tone somewhat differently in MGWT.

 

[Rudeofus]

For example, I found one once that had ammonia in it that was interesting, but I didn't write it down unfortunately.

Maybe you were luckier than you think. A bleach which contains Ammonia in anything but trace quantity will have solvent property, which means: good bye, print highlights!

 

[Patrick Robert James]

Maybe you were luckier than you think. A bleach which contains Ammonia in anything but trace quantity will have solvent property, which means: good bye, print highlights!

That is certainly possible. My memory is not so great and I don't really keep notes. It is possible I used Ammonia in the Sulphide bath instead of the bleach.

At any rate, I was moving some stuff today and in a moment of kismet found the Ephraums book, Creative Elements. Here is the bleach for blue/black that he gives for redevelopment.

Water at 40ºC
CopperSulphate 50g
Sulphuric Acid 10% 65ml
Sodium Chloride 50g
Water to 1000ml

Redevelopment in a Metol/S. Sulphite/S. Carbonate developer.

Hope that helps.

 

[Rudeofus]

Note, that Sodium Chloride also has solvent action at this concentration, so similar problems may occur. But maybe that's the point: boost blue tone by dissolving the smallest grains, which tend to be yellow/brown. One will have to account for this during printing, though.

 

[brian steinberger]

That is certainly possible. My memory is not so great and I don't really keep notes. It is possible I used Ammonia in the Sulphide bath instead of the bleach.

At any rate, I was moving some stuff today and in a moment of kismet found the Ephraums book, Creative Elements. Here is the bleach for blue/black that he gives for redevelopment.

Water at 40ºC
CopperSulphate 50g
Sulphuric Acid 10% 65ml
Sodium Chloride 50g
Water to 1000ml

Redevelopment in a Metol/S. Sulphite/S. Carbonate developer.

Hope that helps.

This is the formula that I plan to try. I have heard that copper sulfate can weaken a papers emulsion. Not sure if that will be an issue or not. I guess you never know til you try it. Interesting to me though that no one on APUG has commented on using this formula. Atleast there is nothing in the archives about it.

 

[Rudeofus]

This is the formula that I plan to try. I have heard that copper sulfate can weaken a papers emulsion. Not sure if that will be an issue or not. I guess you never know til you try it. Interesting to me though that no one on APUG has commented on using this formula. Atleast there is nothing in the archives about it.

I have tried a similar, Copper Sulfate based formula for rehal bleaching color slides, and ended up with a faint red hue, probably from some form of residual copper compound.

 

[Rafal Lukawiecki]

To those following this thread, we have found the magic compound, and it is PMT. The effect is very pronounced. Read here: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[DREW WILEY]

Is someone still trying to resuscitate this corpse? I solved the problem. I just let MGWT be warm tone, and ordered a box of Galerie Gr 3.

 

[Rudeofus]

If a few drops of some moderately cheap compound can create the same effect as a change in paper, I see no reason to be critical of people pursuing this venue.

 

[brian steinberger]

I just ordered some PMT last evening from PF, along with chems for bleach and redevelopment for cold blue blacks. Much fun upcoming in the next few weeks!