Dilution strength

[Spidy]

Tried finding the answer to my question, but it seems all dilution questions relate to film.

I understand the advantages and disadvantages of different dilution strengths for film developers, but what are the advantages and disadvantages for paper developers (other than a weaker dilution will work out to be slightly cheaper in the long run)?

 

[MattKing]

Tried finding the answer to my question, but it seems all dilution questions relate to film.

I understand the advantages and disadvantages of different dilution strengths for film developers, but what are the advantages and disadvantages for paper developers (other than a weaker dilution will work out to be slightly cheaper in the long run)?

For most commercially packaged developers, following the manufacturer's recommendations is a good idea. With paper developers you are aiming for something that approaches complete development, in a development time that is practically convenient, sufficiently short to avoid fogging and sufficiently long to ensure uniform development . If you use a more dilute dilute developer, you will need to replace it more frequently, so economy isn't necessarily better.
Some developers are designed to give different image colour with different dilutions - I'll let someone who has made use of that flexibility comment on that.
EDIT: welcome to Photrio!

 

[Mick Fagan]

Well with my current paper developer, which is E72 (a more environmentally friendly version of Dektol) contrast is the difference.

For highest contrast and how I almost always mix my paper developer, I use 1:1 (water to stock solution ratio). 1:2 or 1:3 dilution gives me a slightly lower contrast and a very slightly different look. With different papers that variable can be minimal or reasonably noticeable. As the look can be minimal, sometimes I will do maximum dilution to stretch out the amount of chemistry usage.

My E72 is mixed up from chemicals that I obtain from Vanbar, which is in Melbourne.

Welcome to the forum

Mick.

 

[Spidy]

I bought the ILFORD MULTIGRADE PAPER Developer and the online PDF's that come from ILFORD state that I can mix at either 1+9 or 1+14. So 1+9 will give me higher contrast on RC paper?

Also, The Fixer can be mixed at 1+4 or 1+9. Only the Stop is mixed at 1+19. What are the differences for the fixer?

And MattKing and Mick Fagan, thank you for the warm welcome.

 

[MattKing]

The Multigrade Paper developer will probably give you very similar results at the two dilutions. The two alternatives are provided in order to provide a choice of development times, and to offer the ability to economize if you habitually don't use to capacity the amount you mix - in essence you waste less if you discard developer at the end of a session.
The contrast difference Mick refers to can occur, but is most likely quite small with the developer you are using.
Fixer is designed to be used at the stronger dilution with film. Usually film fixer should be re-used. With paper, some prefer to use it more dilute, and for longer times. Other prefer to use it at the stronger dilution, for shorter times. As it is harder to re-use paper fixer reliably, and as used fixer is best handled specially (not discarded down the drain) the question of which dilution to use is essentially one of practicality.
If you don't over-use the fixer, and if you fix for long enough, there should be no quality difference in the results obtained from the two choices.
FWIW, I use the weaker dilution for RC prints, track my usage, rarely re-use my fixer unless I am again printing in the next day or so and take the used fixer to my friends who are recovering silver.
For film, I use the stronger dilution, re-use fixer, carefully track usage and do clip tests to confirm activity. My friends get this used fixer too.
For clarity, while I mix my film fixer and paper fixer from the same bottle of concentrate, it is important to mix up separate amounts of working solution for film, and working solution for prints. It is best not to use used film fixer later for prints, or to use used print fixer for film.
I am using Kodak Rapid Fixer currently, but I've used Ilford Rapid Fixer and Ilford Hypam Fixer the same way.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

"Fine-grain" film developers like ID-11 and D-76 have more grain-softening activity at full strength and less at higher dilutions. Grain will be softer but there will be a bit less acutance at full strength, grain more pronounced but with more sharpness at higher dilutions.

Paper developer will need longer to develop at higher dilutions and the capacity will be less; fine if you're using it one-session and don't plan on making more prints than the capacity. Using print developers very strong or very weak can change contrast and/or image tone on some papers.

Doremus

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Tried finding the answer to my question, but it seems all dilution questions relate to film.

I understand the advantages and disadvantages of different dilution strengths for film developers, but what are the advantages and disadvantages for paper developers (other than a weaker dilution will work out to be slightly cheaper in the long run)?

within limits contrast can be controlled with developer dilution, which can be especially helpful when preparing paper negatives; I see no other need.

 

[nworth]

Unlike film, you usually develop paper "to completion," meaning essentially as long as it makes any difference. You develop to the highest contrast possible. When you dilute the developer, you may get a little less contrast capability, but not usually much. The real advantage of diluting paper developer usually comes from increased working time. Doubling the dilution generally requires about half again as much time for development. This can be very valuable when working with large paper sizes.

 

[Sirius Glass]

For most commercially packaged developers, following the manufacturer's recommendations is a good idea. With paper developers you are aiming for something that approaches complete development, in a development time that is practically convenient, sufficiently short to avoid fogging and sufficiently long to ensure uniform development . If you use a more dilute dilute developer, you will need to replace it more frequently, so economy isn't necessarily better.
Some developers are designed to give different image colour with different dilutions - I'll let someone who has made use of that flexibility comment on that.
EDIT: welcome to Photrio!

I too have found the best results by following the manufacturers' instructions.

 

[Spidy]

Thanks for the replies guys, very informative.

And thank you MattKing, your explanation of " .........and to offer the ability to economize if you habitually don't use to capacity the amount you mix - in essence you waste less if you discard developer at the end of a session." makes perfect sense as that is most likely the way I will work. At least in the beginning anyway. I'm a complete newbie and all of this advice is valuable to me. Exciting times ahead.

 

[rpavich]

Welcome to Photorio!
It is VERY exciting! I've been shooting and printing film for about 2 or 3 years now and it's always thrilling at ever step! Right now it's 3am here in the US and I'm drying a reel of HP5 to print before work.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Unlike film, you usually develop paper "to completion," meaning essentially as long as it makes any difference. You develop to the highest contrast possible. When you dilute the developer, you may get a little less contrast capability, but not usually much. The real advantage of diluting paper developer usually comes from increased working time. Doubling the dilution generally requires about half again as much time for development. This can be very valuable when working with large paper sizes.

not my experience!

 

[Craig75]

Does it only matter if the paper does not have developing agents (or whatever term is) in the paper itself?

 

[darkroommike]

For a paper developer you can get a tray full of developer with less stock solution using a higher dilution. In other words, if I am just making a few prints it's nice to have a liter or soup in a 8x10 tray, but I hate to "waste"a half liter of stock paper developer, so I'll use a higher dilution and a little longer processing time.

 

[Spidy]

Welcome to Photorio!
It is VERY exciting! I've been shooting and printing film for about 2 or 3 years now and it's always thrilling at ever step! Right now it's 3am here in the US and I'm drying a reel of HP5 to print before work.

Wow, that's dedication.

 

[Spidy]

For a paper developer you can get a tray full of developer with less stock solution using a higher dilution. In other words, if I am just making a few prints it's nice to have a liter or soup in a 8x10 tray, but I hate to "waste"a half liter of stock paper developer, so I'll use a higher dilution and a little longer processing time.

And that's the way I plan on working.

Thanks again for all the replies guys.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Does it only matter if the paper does not have developing agents (or whatever term is) in the paper itself?

very few papers ever had incorporated developers. I can't even think of any!

 

[rpavich]

Wow, that's dedication.

Hahaha...that's insomnia! I've been working in the field of aircraft manufacture and design for all of my life and much of the time, starting work at 4am or earlier was the norm. Unfortunately as I get older (I'm 58 now) I tend to do that anyway. I routinely get up anywhere between 12:00am and 4:00am every day. I do a lot of film stuff during that time because my wife is asleep and it's peaceful and quiet.

I wish I could get out of the habit, I'd love to hit the sack at 10:00pm and get up at 6:00am but it just doesn't happen.
Edited to add: For example: it's 3:07am, I've had two cups of coffee, made 4 prints and now I'm surfing the Photorio

 

[Spidy]

Insomnia?! Good way to pass the night.

On another topic, Actually two parts to this, one is, do wet papers exists to print colour negatives, and two, should I start a new thread for this sort of thing?

 

[MattKing]

On another topic, Actually two parts to this, one is, do wet papers exists to print colour negatives, and two, should I start a new thread for this sort of thing?

Yes and yes - but read through the Colour Film Paper and Chemistry sub-forum first, paying particular attention to RA-4 process printing (that is the Kodak designation for the long time current process).
That sub-forum is the best place to post that enquiry.

 

[Spidy]

Yes and yes - but read through the Colour Film Paper and Chemistry sub-forum first, paying particular attention to RA-4 process printing (that is the Kodak designation for the long time current process).
That sub-forum is the best place to post that enquiry.

Thanks Matt. Apologies for the badly positioned post.

 

[MattKing]

Thanks Matt. Apologies for the badly positioned post.

Nothing to apologize for - thanks for asking for directions .
Here is a summary of what you will learn if you ask questions about it:
Colour printing in a darkroom is wonderful.
Colour printing in a darkroom is frustrating.
Getting paper and chemicals for colour printing in a darkroom is frustrating.
Colour paper is a lot cheaper than black and white darkroom paper - particularly if you buy rolls.
Now have fun

 

[Mick Fagan]

very few papers ever had incorporated developers. I can't even think of any!

Ralph, Kentmere VC Select RC paper manufactured by Harman technology Ltd has a developer incorporated into the emulsion. (VC = Variable Contrast. RC = Resin Coated base)
If you go to their site and get the technical PDF, in it you will see this paragraph:-

"Coated emulsion layer
The light-sensitive silver halide emulsion layer has a silver content of approximately 1.5 g/m². This is covered with a gelatine supercoat which protects the emulsion from stress fogging and physical damage and also contains a developing agent."

I have on and off used this paper, firstly because it became available, secondly because it is cheaper than Ilford VC RC paper.
For the OP of this thread, it may help you as you will certainly get very black blacks for longer with failing or very diluted developer. This is my personal experience with this paper.

For OP of this thread and for what it is worth, Vanbar in Melbourne stock, or did stock this paper the last time I was in their store, I know as I bought three boxes of 254mm by 203.2mm by 100 sheets. They also had some A4 size of this paper, which is almost a perfect ratio for 35mm negative enlargement.

Mick.

 

[darkroommike]

very few papers ever had incorporated developers. I can't even think of any!

The Ilford RC Rapid papers come to mind Ralph, I bought some since it was at the time the only 8.5x11 paper I could get in a smaller quantity for contact proof sheets, the base has turned a disconcerting brown over the year. And any papers compatible with the Kodak Royal Print Processor including Kodak Kodabrome II RC papers.

 

[MattKing]

Somewhere in the APUG archives you will find some discussions on the subject of papers with trace amounts of incorporated developers. Apparently, that is one of the ways that different batches of papers can be speed and contrast matched.
This should be differentiated from the papers that had full amounts of developer incorporated and were designed for activation processors - Kodak Ektamatic comes to mind - which gave dry to slightly damp results in seconds, and were well suited to newspaper and other tight demand work.