Eastman Kodak temporarily paused all film production - to upgrade manufacturing plant (Nov 2024)

[Alessandro Serrao]

so apparently the Upgrade operation in Rochester has been successfully completed..

https://www.rochesterfirst.com/news/business/local-business/kodak-increases-film-production-capacity-to-meet-commercial-consumer-demand/

work apparently included both the Motion Picture and consumer film finishing operations, as well as film base and coating factories

and Kodak is still Hiring fresh staff.

Now I would expect a price cut on all films...

 

[pentaxuser]

Now I would expect a price cut on all films...

Can you say what you believe to be the reasons why the shutdown gíves you hope that it will result in a price cut on all films?
If it was said as a joke then of course there is no need to give reasons

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[ags2mikon]

I think that most of us have a substantial investment in camera and darkroom equipment right? The cost of the film and paper is the most economical part of the equation. To me stable inventory is more important. Last month I got in the motorhome and went on a short trip to burn some film, 10 rolls of 120 TMY-2, and I spent more on fuel than I did on film. But I didn't have any hotel or restaurant costs. And I had my micro mobile darkroom with me.

 

[Sirius Glass]

This is good news that Kodak is fully up and making film again.

 

[DREW WILEY]

The cost of a major overhead investment has to be recouped somehow. Why would film prices go down? If you're complaining about the price of 35mm and 120 film, go out and shoot 8x10 for awhile, especially in color. That will cure you. A single shot is the price of a gas station stop for my truck (or would be, if I didn't have a significant stash of it purchased when the prices are a fourth as much as today).

More likely, if Kodak is forced into another price increase, that will become an excuse for their partial competition to follow suit. What is killing me at the moment is the staggering price increase in Ilford's printing papers. 16X20 MG FB papers have gone up $200 a box in just a couple years. I can't even consider 20X24.

 

[analogwisdom]

go out and shoot 8x10 for awhile, especially in color. That will cure you. A single shot is the price of a gas station stop for my truck

Putting aside anything about the quality of the film, and assuming one already has the holder and processor, Polaroid 8x10 has been the cheapest way to shoot color 8x10 for a few years now.

$19USD per shot (before tax + shipping).

The next cheapest color right now is Provia 100F, even though it's a higher initial price, you get 20sh per box so it's around $22 per shot.

I wonder how often Kodak makes runs of 8x10 and larger color film these days.

 

[Milpool]

What is killing me at the moment is the staggering price increase in Ilford's printing papers. 16X20 MG FB papers have gone up $200 a box in just a couple years. I can't even consider 20X24.

Indeed, but really, what did you expect?

I’m down to using mostly 5x7 paper now, even for 4x5 negatives.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Kodak simply makes sheet film in big rolls. It doesn't matter the size of the sheet, provided the request meets their minimum order quantity for that size, so it justifies the cut and packaging setup charge. Since 4x5 is by far the most popular size, they routinely offer that. With 8x10, I think the minimum order is something like 70 or 80 boxes, so there might be only a few cuts of that per year for certain dealers or pre-order pools regarding color film, and even less often for 5x7 cuts. Black and white sheet film is more in demand, so liekly cut more frequently.

This is completely unrelated to 120 roll films or 35mm films, which each involve their own coating on different bases than sheet film.

Printing color film is still relatively affordable unless an exotic process is involved. My own capacity is up to 30X40 inch prints; but even a huge 30 or 40 inch wide roll of Fuji RA4 paper generally costs less than a 50 sheet box of 16X20 or 20X24 FB black and white paper these days.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

The cost of a major overhead investment has to be recouped somehow. Why would film prices go down? If you're complaining about the price of 35mm and 120 film, go out and shoot 8x10 for awhile, especially in color. That will cure you. A single shot is the price of a gas station stop for my truck (or would be, if I didn't have a significant stash of it purchased when the prices are a fourth as much as today).

More likely, if Kodak is forced into another price increase, that will become an excuse for their partial competition to follow suit. What is killing me at the moment is the staggering price increase in Ilford's printing papers. 16X20 MG FB papers have gone up $200 a box in just a couple years. I can't even consider 20X24.

Investment costs don't necessarily mean higher prices. They can now produce more film and subsequently increase sales while the cost per unit goes down.

 

[George Mann]

OMG they're bringing back Kodachrome!!!

Which would be the only thing that would keep me purchasing new film from them at this point!

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...With 8x10, I think the minimum order is something like 70 or 80 boxes...

Except 8x10 320TXP, which is a regular catalog item. I don't know whether retailers must order a minimum quantity from Kodak Alaris, but consumers can always purchase single 10-sheet boxes at retail.

 

[MattKing]

And then of course there is K.B. Canham Cameras: https://www.canhamcameras.com/kodakfilm.html

 

[DREW WILEY]

Alan - Kodak doesn't have a giant surplus budget like it did back in its glory days. There is not only a significant cost to new equipment, but also a real investment in hiring and specially training more people, with no doubt a distinct interval involved before that fully pans out. Meanwhile, the cost of all kinds of necessary components and ingredients itself keeps going up. They aren't an island unto themselves. Hopefully, at a certain point, the inherent inflation will level off, or maybe even allow a little price reduction on certain items. But they aren't a philanthropic organization.

 

[MattKing]

Not to mention the fact that the cost of manufacturing the product is just a relatively small portion of the cost of getting it into the hands of users.
But there are other possible sources of improvements.
If increased production efficiency makes it possible to reduce minimum order requirements or makes it possible to fill distributor orders more quickly and flexibly, it might make it easier to find product in store inventories.

 

[Kino]

What is the shelf life of granular Silver Nitrate?

Maybe coating our own paper is in the cards...

 

[DREW WILEY]

Great idea. While you're at it, please coat me some boxes of 20X24 MGWT, Seagull G graded, Brilliant Bromide, and Polygrade V at half the price I paid for these. Then in your spare time, how about some color paper too? I need it in six weeks. That should be ample for your R&D phase. The following year please provide Kodachrome sheet film.

 

[Prest_400]

While there is a discussion about photo paper, Adox did bring Polywarmtone halfway, and deemed the coating and finishing as a dealbreaker busineess wise; sadly after such a long effort.
Ilford Harman films in Europe caught up with inflation.

These kind of discussions where EK is investing are positive. It's not anymore that close in time but recall the 2000s-10s where it was all about downsizing, downsizing. There is even some thread where PE paraphrased an engineering feat in making the huge coater at B38 still doable in those days.

It's a certain irony that (color) film is back to its creator. There are rumors that Fuji is going through a modernization/upgrade as well however aside of Instax Instax Instax, let's see if any E6 and C41 will be left or revamped (400H, Superia in 35mm should be good sellers).

I've gone through almost all my stock of film after a trip and I accepted not having 50+ rolls of color frozen.

 

[Agulliver]

Fuji, mostly because of Japanese corporate culture, are quite secretive so we don't know if they're in a process of modernising production or not. The word was that they were going to try to bring back Superia and 400H but chances are, we won't know until and unless some is released into the wild.

I don't see why this recent Kodak work would lead to quick reductions in film price. There's zero logic behind that at all. But in the medium term? If demand for Kodak colour film keeps up and even continues to rise, we get into the territory where economy of scale becomes a factor. Give it 2-3 years for the investments in manufacturing efficiency and the new staff to pay for themselves and perhaps we'll start to see a difference in price.

But anyone reckoning it's going to happen in the near future is deliberately setting themselves up for disappointment.

 

[koraks]

Fuji, mostly because of Japanese corporate culture, are quite secretive

Don't mistake a lack of need, ability or desire to interact in English with being 'secretive'. You have to understand that Japanese companies interact primarily with their Japanese home market, and don't forget Japan is still the 4th biggest economy worldwide with a population of >122 million. Yes, there are cultural factors at play that result in some information being left implicit or unspoken even though 'everybody' (at least around the company) knows it, or information provision being on the conservative side (contrary to many Western firms who will happily sell you a product that doesn't exist yet, and may never exist). But that's not secrecy, as such. It doesn't mean that there's no secrecy at all - of course there is. As there is in Western companies just the same. Don't forget also that Fuji publish investor information, in English, with comparable transparency to other corporations of its kind.

Did Kodak bother to do a press release in Japanese to inform the Japanese market of their manufacturing upgrades? Or in Italian? Very secretive bunch, those Kodakians.

Anyway, let's get back to Kodak and the never-ending price discussion. Or..maybe not. Let's see if we're going to allow another thread to spiral down into that particular abyss. It would be nice if this thread remained focused on manufacturing abilities, factory upgrades etc.

 

[George Mann]

The word was that they were going to try to bring back Superia

Superia is still manufactured for their home market.

 

[brbo]

There was an entire Superia line before. What is left now is Superia Premium 400 in 135 format only and in quantities not worth mentioning. And that film was always for local market only.

 

[MattKing]

Did Kodak bother to do a press release in Japanese to inform the Japanese market of their manufacturing upgrades? Or in Italian? Very secretive bunch, those Kodakians.

I don't know the answer to your question, but I would be surprised if Kodak Alaris didn't communicate related information to the distributors they deal with in Japan. Who in turn would have most likely communicated with retailers.
That information pathway - through the distribution network, rather than to the consuming public at large - is historically how these things got done. Our modern world expectations for direct from the manufacturer/distributor information is a relatively recent phenomena.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Alan - Kodak doesn't have a giant surplus budget like it did back in its glory days. There is not only a significant cost to new equipment, but also a real investment in hiring and specially training more people, with no doubt a distinct interval involved before that fully pans out. Meanwhile, the cost of all kinds of necessary components and ingredients itself keeps going up. They aren't an island unto themselves. Hopefully, at a certain point, the inherent inflation will level off, or maybe even allow a little price reduction on certain items. But they aren't a philanthropic organization.

All I said was that expanding production facilities doesn't automatically mean prices are going up. If I spend money and buy an electric screwdriver, that investment allows me to produce quicker than a manual screwdriver. The cost to me per item goes down. That reduction in cost allows me to reduce prices to customers, all other things remaining equal.

 

[DREW WILEY]

When Kodak says it needs a another pasta roller and slicer, it's a multi-million dollar highly technical project. Under present circumstances, getting a full return on the investment in equipment and carefully training the necessary skilled labor takes a lot time.

Even with what remains of the serious local photo labs, for the operation and maintenance of their processing machinery they still rely on the same skilled individuals who have been there for decades, and not new hires. It must be a lot more finicky process to train new production personnel at a film factory!

 

[MattKing]

It is important to remember that a significant percentage of EK's coating machinery time is being used to make non-photographic products.