Jim, Greg Davis has just brought out a video on this which you might want to look at
pentaxuser
Everything you want to know about FUJIFILM color RA4 papers
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Jim, Greg Davis has just brought out a video on this which you might want to look at
pentaxuser
I wonder if the same can be said about their chemistry. I continue to rely on Xtol and the Flexicolor line for C-41 and this worries me.
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The fact is, CAii cut sheet yields a much better DMax optically than digitally printed CA papers originally did. It has a lot to do with your negative itself too. For example, when I print internegs made from chrome originals, the evident DMax or depth of black is deeper than what I typically get from direct enlargement of color negs. And many people shoot traditional versions of color neg film with rather low overall contrast to begin with, designed to go easy on the shadows. Are you factoring any of those distinctions, Koraks, or just making a blanket statement irregardless of the specific film involved?
So Koraks - Don't accuse me of not noticing such things! Have you gone to such lengths or distinctions? I doubt it. And those who, in the past, have flashed film or paper relative to negs and internegs don't have the same degree of control in this respect as informed supplemental masking provides. No, CAii is not going to deliver the kind of DMax a premium product like Fuiflex can. But I have personally done some pretty bold work with it, and most certainly have mountains of experience of what serious DMax means in relation to black and white papers.
Anyone who sees mottled brown in the DMax of CAii must be doing something terribly wrong. Never once have I seen that effect. Yeah, it's one of the thinner papers, so you could hypothetically hold it up to strong window light unmounted and see through a bit, and something might appear off color in that respect. But it's not intended as a backlit product, or to be viewed under nuclear explosion levels of lumens. You could ultimately criticize ANY paper ever made on those grounds. Even the deepest blacks of Cibachrome, which go way deep down there compared to RA4 RC papers, exhibit a greenish tint if the light is bright enough. But anything that bright going to prematurely fade the print anyway. But mottled brown???? .... Ever look at how blacks are discontinuously rendered in color inkjet prints, and where mottling is often evident under normal lighting? CAii cut sheet is way better than that, at least. So it's all relative.
Sure, I wish we could have cut sheet convenience in a wider selection of Fuji papers; but one has to start somewhere. Very few are likely to secure a big heavy roll of my favorite, Fujiflex, and try to cut it down to size in the dark. And it's simply too glossy for many kinds of images. Previously I used big rolls of Super C, and even pre-cut 30X40 inch sheets of it, when they still offered that. Fine product. But at the moment, a full selection of paper types is still in short supply, and others like Maxima either aren't sold to amateurs in this country, or simply haven't arrived here again, post-pandemic. And Fuji claims Maxima achieves its intended DMax ONLY using a special tweak of their own RA4 chem lineup different from the standard chem, which is being sold only to those big labs doing high volume Maxima printing. And not everyone wants to be restricted to little postcard size prints. So what do you expect people to do, Koraks? Just give up trying RA4?
As far as different laser printer profiles ... All old hat to me. Just about every one of the major laseroptions was being used by some lab within walking distance of my office, even Chromira (the same outfit which made those made the feedback monitor for my big custom additive enlarger), and I knew the lab owners quite well, was quite familiar with the results and tech dev of these specific devices, and why papers had to be re-tweaked relative to what every lab owner and customer screamed about - the anemic blacks back then being the worst complaint. But the relative weakness of green lasers was another factor. Machine-gun speed snapshot printing lines are really a different category, and are naturally going to limit paper roll widths to to those automated parameters.
But go ahead, insult me with allegedly bringing "noise" to the conversation, or requiring a grain of salt to interpret. Experience is more like it. Everyone appreciates your interaction with the Fuji paper staff itself due to your proximity. But I interacted with engineers and chemists for many years, and understand how they think. A serious chemist knows how to make a good house paint, but might not themselves be a competent house painter at all. There are always two sides to the equation. And heads of major coating industries far bigger than Fuji's coating lines took my own color performance opinions quite seriously, and sometimes went out of their way to hear them in person. So I know how these things work, at least in principle. And I know what is involved in optimizing color paper performance in the darkroom. One has to start somewhere.
I see no need to make some kind of contest out of this, Koraks. Please to continue to inform us what you learn, from your side of things. But please also respect what some of us have solidly learned from our own perspective.
So Koraks - Don't accuse me of not noticing such things! Have you gone to such lengths or distinctions? I doubt it. And those who, in the past, have flashed film or paper relative to negs and internegs don't have the same degree of control in this respect as informed supplemental masking provides. No, CAii is not going to deliver the kind of DMax a premium product like Fuiflex can. But I have personally done some pretty bold work with it, and most certainly have mountains of experience of what serious DMax means in relation to black and white papers.
Anyone who sees mottled brown in the DMax of CAii must be doing something terribly wrong. Never once have I seen that effect. Yeah, it's one of the thinner papers, so you could hypothetically hold it up to strong window light unmounted and see through a bit, and something might appear off color in that respect. But it's not intended as a backlit product, or to be viewed under nuclear explosion levels of lumens. You could ultimately criticize ANY paper ever made on those grounds. Even the deepest blacks of Cibachrome, which go way deep down there compared to RA4 RC papers, exhibit a greenish tint if the light is bright enough. But anything that bright going to prematurely fade the print anyway. But mottled brown???? .... Ever look at how blacks are discontinuously rendered in color inkjet prints, and where mottling is often evident under normal lighting? CAii cut sheet is way better than that, at least. So it's all relative.
Sure, I wish we could have cut sheet convenience in a wider selection of Fuji papers; but one has to start somewhere. Very few are likely to secure a big heavy roll of my favorite, Fujiflex, and try to cut it down to size in the dark. And it's simply too glossy for many kinds of images. Previously I used big rolls of Super C, and even pre-cut 30X40 inch sheets of it, when they still offered that. Fine product. But at the moment, a full selection of paper types is still in short supply, and others like Maxima either aren't sold to amateurs in this country, or simply haven't arrived here again, post-pandemic. And Fuji claims Maxima achieves its intended DMax ONLY using a special tweak of their own RA4 chem lineup different from the standard chem, which is being sold only to those big labs doing high volume Maxima printing. And not everyone wants to be restricted to little postcard size prints. So what do you expect people to do, Koraks? Just give up trying RA4?
As far as different laser printer profiles ... All old hat to me. Just about every one of the major laseroptions was being used by some lab within walking distance of my office, even Chromira (the same outfit which made those made the feedback monitor for my big custom additive enlarger), and I knew the lab owners quite well, was quite familiar with the results and tech dev of these specific devices, and why papers had to be re-tweaked relative to what every lab owner and customer screamed about - the anemic blacks back then being the worst complaint. But the relative weakness of green lasers was another factor. Machine-gun speed snapshot printing lines are really a different category, and are naturally going to limit paper roll widths to to those automated parameters.
But go ahead, insult me with allegedly bringing "noise" to the conversation, or requiring a grain of salt to interpret. Experience is more like it. Everyone appreciates your interaction with the Fuji paper staff itself due to your proximity. But I interacted with engineers and chemists for many years, and understand how they think. A serious chemist knows how to make a good house paint, but might not themselves be a competent house painter at all. There are always two sides to the equation. And heads of major coating industries far bigger than Fuji's coating lines took my own color performance opinions quite seriously, and sometimes went out of their way to hear them in person. So I know how these things work, at least in principle. And I know what is involved in optimizing color paper performance in the darkroom. One has to start somewhere.
I see no need to make some kind of contest out of this, Koraks. Please to continue to inform us what you learn, from your side of things. But please also respect what some of us have solidly learned from our own perspective.
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I'll now provide a concrete example of how a paper engineer or chemist might frame an opinion differently from an end user based upon certain preconceptions, yet which an engineer might in fact be able to answer if the question is posed correctly from an end-use viewpoint. And this is definitely in the "what we need to know" or would "like to know" category.
A production line team is logically going to presume up front that Maxima is going to be processed at a fixed time & temp in a relatively fast automated RA4 tru-put processor. So the official advice as well as tech sheet stipulate a hyped-up special developer for sake of optimal DMax. But the little guy, using basic one-shot drum development, is not constrained to that same locked-in set of variables, and can freely adjust time or temp as needed, and in effect has a distinct advantage. So will that accomplish the same thing? That's a question worth asking.
The same issue affects distribution. Fujifilm USA refuses to sell Maxima for either amateur use or even to otherwise distributors of their papers. They will only sell it to direct accounts personally set up by their official sales Rep, whoever that is. Since Fuji is largely cryptic, and customer service agents at either the mfg or distribution level have hardly any technical knowledge at all, it is very frustrating trying to get valid answers. Few in this country even knows Maxima exists, even though numerous big labs advertise it; and it's plainly on Fuji's website. Again, the PRESUMPTION seems to be that an amateur or small volume user is incapable of using it properly, which might not be the case at all.
A few pre-pandemic individuals in this country have obtained samples of it for optical enlargement purposes, and have reported excellent results. But it's like the entire ballgame was called off due to weather, and has to start all over again post-pandemic.
Of course, your friends at the coating factory can't help us with our distribution headaches here, but these two aspects do seem to be interrelated, because both are based on presumption. One of the biggest successes ever in terms of proliferation of amateur color darkroom printing occurred during the Cibachrome era because they gave guidelines up front about basic unsharp masking and how to use simple home equipment. RA4 should be even easier; and is. But exact answers require someone at least getting this or that specific paper in their hands to test and optimize for their own needs. I'll be tied up printing Fujiflex for awhile, so am not personally in any rush. But if I could get ahold of a 20 or 30 inch roll of Maxima, I'd certainly try it.
A production line team is logically going to presume up front that Maxima is going to be processed at a fixed time & temp in a relatively fast automated RA4 tru-put processor. So the official advice as well as tech sheet stipulate a hyped-up special developer for sake of optimal DMax. But the little guy, using basic one-shot drum development, is not constrained to that same locked-in set of variables, and can freely adjust time or temp as needed, and in effect has a distinct advantage. So will that accomplish the same thing? That's a question worth asking.
The same issue affects distribution. Fujifilm USA refuses to sell Maxima for either amateur use or even to otherwise distributors of their papers. They will only sell it to direct accounts personally set up by their official sales Rep, whoever that is. Since Fuji is largely cryptic, and customer service agents at either the mfg or distribution level have hardly any technical knowledge at all, it is very frustrating trying to get valid answers. Few in this country even knows Maxima exists, even though numerous big labs advertise it; and it's plainly on Fuji's website. Again, the PRESUMPTION seems to be that an amateur or small volume user is incapable of using it properly, which might not be the case at all.
A few pre-pandemic individuals in this country have obtained samples of it for optical enlargement purposes, and have reported excellent results. But it's like the entire ballgame was called off due to weather, and has to start all over again post-pandemic.
Of course, your friends at the coating factory can't help us with our distribution headaches here, but these two aspects do seem to be interrelated, because both are based on presumption. One of the biggest successes ever in terms of proliferation of amateur color darkroom printing occurred during the Cibachrome era because they gave guidelines up front about basic unsharp masking and how to use simple home equipment. RA4 should be even easier; and is. But exact answers require someone at least getting this or that specific paper in their hands to test and optimize for their own needs. I'll be tied up printing Fujiflex for awhile, so am not personally in any rush. But if I could get ahold of a 20 or 30 inch roll of Maxima, I'd certainly try it.
The first I heard of Maxima was in this thread. That prompted me to look at Fuji's site for the paper details. It turns out there are a lot more choices out there than what we can get at the typical dealers. I'd love to try the Maxima, Fujiflex, and PD in sheets without committing to 2 or 4 rolls. But searching for even rolls for sale the choices are very spotty.
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Due to my former career background, I'm pretty good at tracking down and communicating with sales Reps. I could have even asked for his name and number at a local lab this morning if I needed to, or alternately, asked them to re-sell me some of this or that special Fuji paper they happen to routinely use, like CA Supreme, which is in fact officially recommended for both optical and digital printing, but alas, is available only up to 12 inch wide rolls. But I will be busy enough printing Fujiflex this upcoming season. You can purchase Fujiflex in a single roll via B&H special order - but it's either going to be 30 or 40 inches wide, and cost between $800 and $1300.
Otherwise, nobody seems to know anything. I've already called all kinds of alleged distributors. Even FujifilmUSA's official website seems to be out of sync when it comes to which papers it actually warehouses, versus the product names on their site. Only their insider price list with the specific product numbers, and not just names, will tell you that, and then, only hypothetically until the pandemic backlog gets caught up with. But if we keep trying, someone will eventually punch through the wall. I don't want to bother until either the dust settles down more, or else I'm running low on my current preferred media, and want to switch to a lower gloss product for sake of a different set of images.
Incidentally, CA Supreme has become a very acceptable substitute for Kodak Radiance with these smaller labs and their clientele. Even if Radiance were to hypothetically revive, I doubt they'd go back.
Otherwise, nobody seems to know anything. I've already called all kinds of alleged distributors. Even FujifilmUSA's official website seems to be out of sync when it comes to which papers it actually warehouses, versus the product names on their site. Only their insider price list with the specific product numbers, and not just names, will tell you that, and then, only hypothetically until the pandemic backlog gets caught up with. But if we keep trying, someone will eventually punch through the wall. I don't want to bother until either the dust settles down more, or else I'm running low on my current preferred media, and want to switch to a lower gloss product for sake of a different set of images.
Incidentally, CA Supreme has become a very acceptable substitute for Kodak Radiance with these smaller labs and their clientele. Even if Radiance were to hypothetically revive, I doubt they'd go back.
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It's their best kept secret that's not really a secret
These are the papers that are in the sampler pack I got a few weeks ago:
This does not include Flex or Trans since these are manufactured in Japan. "PD" as such isn't in there either because it's a product that appears to be unique to the US market. I'm not sure if it's actually a unique product or that it's in the lineup in a different name as well.
In this lineup there are also various Album papers. These are intended to be glued back-to-back (or perhaps on top of a carrier/base material) to make wedding albums etc. Some, like Album XS, are really, really thin, which is interesting (and creepy to think of handling bigger prints of this weight!)
The paper I'd really like to get my hands on would be Velvet. It's a true dead-matte finish and unique as a result. This, combined with Maxima or DPII, would be ideal for my needs.
But I guess the wide selection of materials also illustrates why for retailers it's unattractive to offer more than one or two of them in cut sheet. They'd end up with unsold and expired stock much of the time, no doubt. Still, I'd like to make a case for retailers/confectioners to offer more than plain CA in cut sheet. IMO it would make perfect sense to replace CA with e.g. DPII if only a single cut-sheet option would be offered. It's a snap-in replacement of overall higher quality, and since the added value in cut sheet is the actual cutting & confectioning, the margin could be just as healthy with only a marginally higher retail price. So far, only Nordfoto in Germany seems to have realized this.
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Wow! That's an impressive selection. But certain of those are probably being listed in the US under different names or hypothetically different size options, if inventory were up to normal. And photo albums per se related to weddings etc are an almost extinct custom here, with people wanting almost instant web presentation instead. They claim "silk" is designed to be difficult to copy or pirate - another not so versatile idea, though it would be interesting to see a sample of.
Brick n' mortar retailers are completely out of the color darkroom paper business in this country with a handful of exceptions. It's just the large internet and phone order houses involved. So what stores might or might not want is probably a non-factor. Few store personnel know a thing about color darkroom printing anymore. Inkjet has taken over. But labs still buy a lot of RA4 product. I've seen stacks of it being delivered to even the smaller niche labs. Convenience "Photofinishers" are yet another category, but depend on specific papers we darkroom workers don't have much use for.
But yeah, you'd be a Superhero if you could convince them to try cut sheet packaging of DPii when their master rolls of CAii run out; but somebody in marketing would probably whine about any price point shift, or that amateurs simply don't deserve something thicker. But gosh, the inconsistency in product designations between here and there sure makes things confusing sometimes. And Fujifilm USA just plain refuses to sell some of these products through retailers. It used to be that even the full selection of Super C could be ordered through B&H. B&H is now listing a wide range of roll sizes of Super PD as a special order option, also Silk, and big Fujiflex rolls too; but I'm not quite sure what PD equates to yet. It seems to be marketed as a lower contrast portrait paper, so not a replacement for Super C at all. I sure don't want anything lower contrast. What seems to be intended as a replacement for Super C is Type Cn - one of those alleged "digital only" options; but I take that with a grain of salt.
There is a big wholesale distribution warehouse just 15 miles from me here on the West Coast, who formerly handled a huge inventory of Kodak papers, and at least had an active Fuji account too. But they had hell trying to transition over when Kodak papers were dying off, and the pandemic was limiting Fuji imports, and probably affecting staffing too. They tried to be helpful to my queries, but just like all the others, didn't get responses from Fuji itself. It's that kind of thing which make me state the dust needs to settle a little more here first. Supply itself is just starting to normalize - and competent representation or knowledgable sales personnel - who knows? Those kinds of people are getting rare with respect to any product line these days.
Too bad some purchasing collective couldn't be put together here in the US for sake of combined bulk paper cuts, much like is done for special sizes of film.
Brick n' mortar retailers are completely out of the color darkroom paper business in this country with a handful of exceptions. It's just the large internet and phone order houses involved. So what stores might or might not want is probably a non-factor. Few store personnel know a thing about color darkroom printing anymore. Inkjet has taken over. But labs still buy a lot of RA4 product. I've seen stacks of it being delivered to even the smaller niche labs. Convenience "Photofinishers" are yet another category, but depend on specific papers we darkroom workers don't have much use for.
But yeah, you'd be a Superhero if you could convince them to try cut sheet packaging of DPii when their master rolls of CAii run out; but somebody in marketing would probably whine about any price point shift, or that amateurs simply don't deserve something thicker. But gosh, the inconsistency in product designations between here and there sure makes things confusing sometimes. And Fujifilm USA just plain refuses to sell some of these products through retailers. It used to be that even the full selection of Super C could be ordered through B&H. B&H is now listing a wide range of roll sizes of Super PD as a special order option, also Silk, and big Fujiflex rolls too; but I'm not quite sure what PD equates to yet. It seems to be marketed as a lower contrast portrait paper, so not a replacement for Super C at all. I sure don't want anything lower contrast. What seems to be intended as a replacement for Super C is Type Cn - one of those alleged "digital only" options; but I take that with a grain of salt.
There is a big wholesale distribution warehouse just 15 miles from me here on the West Coast, who formerly handled a huge inventory of Kodak papers, and at least had an active Fuji account too. But they had hell trying to transition over when Kodak papers were dying off, and the pandemic was limiting Fuji imports, and probably affecting staffing too. They tried to be helpful to my queries, but just like all the others, didn't get responses from Fuji itself. It's that kind of thing which make me state the dust needs to settle a little more here first. Supply itself is just starting to normalize - and competent representation or knowledgable sales personnel - who knows? Those kinds of people are getting rare with respect to any product line these days.
Too bad some purchasing collective couldn't be put together here in the US for sake of combined bulk paper cuts, much like is done for special sizes of film.
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That is quite an impressive array of options. I wonder if we can get a sampler for the US choices. Not that it would matter much if we can’t buy them.
The US choices would be a subset of the papers shown above. There's only one plant manufacturing this material, and what's shown above is the full selection currently being made.
The only exceptions are FujiFlex and the older FujiTrans, which are niche products that are being coated in Japan.
I have just had a short session printing on Fuji RA4 using CPRA Developer and yes I agree about the lack of a real true black we enjoyed with Kodak Ektacolor but I certainly don't get any mottling though.
I personally find it is also sensitive to filtration changes. I printed the same negative last night that I realised was not quite correct and had too much green. I checked using Kodak colour filters and they suggested I remove 10 unit's of magenta and it went completely the other way. I continued and the best balance I could get was with using only 2.5 units less of magenta
It is acceptable but only just. I wish kodak was still available.
I started using Fuji CPRA after Kodak Ektacolour was no longer available and I am finding it is as good as the Kodak and needs considerably less replenishment. I was put in touch with Fiji's Tech department in UK and had a long discussion about the use of CPRA. I was warned that over replenishment in a deep tank processor will result in an immoveable blue cast. I was given a guide of 100cc of replenishment in after approx 1600sq cms of paper.
As for longevity in the NOVA slots, it compares favourably alongside the Kodak equivalent with the current mix being used since November last year (with replenishment).
I personally find it is also sensitive to filtration changes. I printed the same negative last night that I realised was not quite correct and had too much green. I checked using Kodak colour filters and they suggested I remove 10 unit's of magenta and it went completely the other way. I continued and the best balance I could get was with using only 2.5 units less of magenta
It is acceptable but only just. I wish kodak was still available.
I started using Fuji CPRA after Kodak Ektacolour was no longer available and I am finding it is as good as the Kodak and needs considerably less replenishment. I was put in touch with Fiji's Tech department in UK and had a long discussion about the use of CPRA. I was warned that over replenishment in a deep tank processor will result in an immoveable blue cast. I was given a guide of 100cc of replenishment in after approx 1600sq cms of paper.
As for longevity in the NOVA slots, it compares favourably alongside the Kodak equivalent with the current mix being used since November last year (with replenishment).
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That sounds very high. For other Fuji developers its around 10% of this rate.
What paper were you printing on?
Sorry, my mistake, I should have written 1600 Sq Ins. The paper was Fuji Crystal Archive 10x12 cut sheets. I didn't make it up out of thin air, that figure came from Fuji them selves because I was having difficulty working it out.
There is a problem with this, because of the warning not to over replenish, but by the time I have processed half that amount in the NOVA, I need to top up because with carry over to the stop bath The level is very low and barely covers the top edge of the paper.
There is a problem with this, because of the warning not to over replenish, but by the time I have processed half that amount in the NOVA, I need to top up because with carry over to the stop bath The level is very low and barely covers the top edge of the paper.
Yeah, that part came through to me alright
I suspected a zero was missing somewhere. Replenishment rates of Fuji chemistry hover between 65 and 180 or so ml per square meter.Carryover can indeed be a concern, although personally I've never observed it to be more than the replenishment rate dictates. It does depend a bit on processing. Perhaps let the paper drip a little longer before going to blix or stop? In any case, I wouldn't worry too much about slightly overreplenishing. The rates Fuji provides are (1) starting points and (2) given with totally different processing equipment in mind than the kind of stuff we use. In my experience it doesn't hurt to slightly overreplenish - just don't go crazy
All the text. When do we find out more about the practical use of these papers??
Kinda frustrating
Kinda frustrating
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Life is so more predictable with one-shot development. I never used a replenishable roller-transport processor even when I owned one.
What is it that you'd like to know?
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In Poland you can buy one roll, no problem.
Others may want to know which retailer this is - thanks
Note that big rolls come in singles. Small rolls like 8" and 12" come two in a box. A retailer can decide to open the box and sell a single roll. It's surprising that so few retailers actually do this!
Maxima is sold direct in the US . Minimum order quantity is 1 roll. On LFF, two people posted information of how/who to contact. That seems to have disappeared. One person was doing large amounts of printing. She went so far as offering cut sheets of Maxima, since she has an automated cutter.
update: the post on LFf was in 2021..
& Je has responded about the situation being the same. as of this month. only shortfall was in 2022 for internal wind paper.
she uses 3 rolls a month
[she explained why the posts were gone]
update: the post on LFf was in 2021..
& Je has responded about the situation being the same. as of this month. only shortfall was in 2022 for internal wind paper.
she uses 3 rolls a month
[she explained why the posts were gone]
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I've been able to get single rolls (in the past) from Unique Photo in New Jersey USA. I think most places that supply individuals and smaller shops will listen to requests for partial cases etc.
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sasah - that post about Maxima in the US was quite some time back, and the apocalypse of the pandemic intervened. We don't know if even the same contact works for Fuji anymore. In terms of distributors, Unique is very dicey in terms of correct information and actual inventory on hand, and cannot acquire Maxima; nor can B&H or Freestyle. So some updated sleuthing is required relative to direct buying options. I might do that when I am finished with this season's color printing of Fujiflex and planning what to use next year. But most of my own upcoming usage will be relatively large size, and based on enlarging 8X10 color neg originals.
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I spoke to a supplier in UK and asked why we cannot buy just one roll and the response was that each pack of two rolls are packed in one container and they are opened in what is to all intents and purposed a darkroom and repacked and made light tight once again one roll is removed and that roll is loaded into the printer. If they did that. the suppliers fear they would not be unable to sell the other roll. Somehow I am not convinced!
I feel a letter to FUJI UK is the way to go to find out the definitive story about the paper and if it is available to order in single rolls.
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Others may want to know which retailer this is - thanks
Note that big rolls come in singles. Small rolls like 8" and 12" come two in a box. A retailer can decide to open the box and sell a single roll. It's surprising that so few retailers actually do this!
The supplier in UK I spoke to was Silverprint
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