Everything you want to know about FUJIFILM color RA4 papers

[halfaman]

I have tried recently Velvet and Maxima matt finish. Velvet has been a little dissapointment but I like Maxima.

While Velvet seems to be the same DPII emulsion in a dead matt base that needs extra exposure to get density and resulting in low contrast images, Maxima is the opposite. You get density easier (I need to cut exposure compared to DPII) and the images have some more depth in the shadows area with the same matt finish than DPII. I need to work with Maxima more but the inital feel is good.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I can't get Maxima at all here to test, though I've certainly tried. It's a wider hue gamut I seek, something in an RC paper comparable to what truly superb Fujiflex product provides. But not every image or display circumstance is suitable for a Fujiflex high gloss presentation. It's in a whole other league than the mere "gloss" of RC papers. In the past I had good luck with Super C in both gloss and matte, but haven't tried the current version of that. But Fujiflex gives the most saturation and deepest DMax of any of them. It's also the most expensive.

 

[koraks]

While Velvet seems to be the same DPII emulsion

Velvet, Maxima and DPII are all the same emulsions from a technical viewpoint, but the layer structure is different. Particularly the thickness of the image-forming layers is different, the interlayers are likely slightly different in thickness and potentially composition, and of course the top-coat layer is different. Maxima has the thickest image-forming layers and I suppose it's possible that this is why you appear to be getting the same density at less exposure. There's just more emulsion to work with, although the difference with other papers will be marginal.

Velvet is a really special paper given its matte finish, which is a true dead matte as you mentioned, but this does come at the cost of (apparent) dmax. I think this is mostly due to the finish and not so much the emulsion itself. The surface is rather sensitive to marring.

 

[halfaman]

Velvet, Maxima and DPII are all the same emulsions from a technical viewpoint, but the layer structure is different. Particularly the thickness of the image-forming layers is different, the interlayers are likely slightly different in thickness and potentially composition, and of course the top-coat layer is different. Maxima has the thickest image-forming layers and I suppose it's possible that this is why you appear to be getting the same density at less exposure. There's just more emulsion to work with, although the difference with other papers will be marginal.

Velvet is a really special paper given its matte finish, which is a true dead matte as you mentioned, but this does come at the cost of (apparent) dmax. I think this is mostly due to the finish and not so much the emulsion itself. The surface is rather sensitive to marring.

I print the same negative with exact same paremeters (column height, filtering pack, lens, time, aperture,..) in DPII matt, Velvet and Maxima matt. Being the first one my reference.

Velvet print was exactly the same than DPII regarding color and highlihts detail but with substancially lower DMax. If I would like to match the shadow density I will end with a low contrast and dark image. On the other hand, Maxima was contrastier and darker with a pich of less yellow compared to DPII.

For the sake of ilustrating my comment I put some scans of the prints. They have been altered in PS to match their real aspect in my screen but I don't know how you are really going to see them in your brownser. Take it as a relative comparison.

DPII matt

Velvet

Maxima matt (yellow compensated in the print)

 

[koraks]

Thanks- that's an interesting comparison, although under my present viewing conditions (daylight and a normal low-end LCD monitor) the differences are rather subtle, indeed. I see some higher saturation on the Maxima print. I also see the lower dmax on the Velvet, although as said I think this is mostly due to the surface finish. As you've noticed, the Velvet surface is fundamentally different from the 'matte' surface on the other papers and this impacts reflectance greatly. As a result, I don't think it's technically possible to get the same (measured and subjective/apparent) dmax on Velvet as on the other papers.

Thanks once more; these kinds of comparisons, although always challenging due to the influence of digital issues, are very useful indeed.

 

[halfaman]

Thanks once more; these kinds of comparisons, although always challenging due to the influence of digital issues, are very useful indeed.

It is near an impossible task when not only the monitor but also the internet bronswer plays a role on how images are rendered. I checked Edge and Firefox in my computer and the differences in the color saturation are not small.

I update the images with some bigger ones as initially intended. They look more or less ok in my monitor and using Firefox.

 

[koraks]

Yeah, the whole business of image display in browsers is a bit of a mess.

 

[mshchem]

Velvet, Maxima and DPII are all the same emulsions from a technical viewpoint, but the layer structure is different. Particularly the thickness of the image-forming layers is different, the interlayers are likely slightly different in thickness and potentially composition, and of course the top-coat layer is different. Maxima has the thickest image-forming layers and I suppose it's possible that this is why you appear to be getting the same density at less exposure. There's just more emulsion to work with, although the difference with other papers will be marginal.

Velvet is a really special paper given its matte finish, which is a true dead matte as you mentioned, but this does come at the cost of (apparent) dmax. I think this is mostly due to the finish and not so much the emulsion itself. The surface is rather sensitive to marring.

In the US it seems that no one sells single rolls of Fujifilm paper. I would like to try Maxima glossy. Is there any supplier that sells less than case quantities of these papers?
Fortunately B&H sells CA 8X10 to 20x24 in 3 surfaces so I'm good for now.

 

[koraks]

In the US it seems that no one sells single rolls of Fujifilm paper. I would like to try Maxima glossy. Is there any supplier that sells less than case quantities of these papers?
Fortunately B&H sells CA 8X10 to 20x24 in 3 surfaces so I'm good for now.

I don't know what distributors and retailers in the US may or may not do. In Europe, the most common practice is to sell the packaging that Fuji manufactures in their plant. This means boxes with two rolls for rolls up to 11" width, and single rolls of 11" and larger. As a result, AFAIK Maxima only comes in single-roll boxes since the smallest size it comes in is 11" (and I have some doubts if they really cut it that small in practice, since 12" seems to be the smallest they actually stock around here).

There are bound to be several retailers in the US that will gladly sell you a single box/roll of Maxima in e.g. 12", because that's how it comes from Fuji anyway.

 

[mshchem]

I don't know what distributors and retailers in the US may or may not do. In Europe, the most common practice is to sell the packaging that Fuji manufactures in their plant. This means boxes with two rolls for rolls up to 11" width, and single rolls of 11" and larger. As a result, AFAIK Maxima only comes in single-roll boxes since the smallest size it comes in is 11" (and I have some doubts if they really cut it that small in practice, since 12" seems to be the smallest they actually stock around here).

There are bound to be several retailers in the US that will gladly sell you a single box/roll of Maxima in e.g. 12", because that's how it comes from Fuji anyway.

Do you buy direct from Fuji?

 

[Mr Bill]

Dealers kinda frown on the manufacturer trying to sell direct to THEIR (potential) customers.

Where I was from we generally dealt direct, but by means of actually becoming a dealer first. But there's gotta be a lotta material being bought to get there.

 

[mshchem]

Dealers kinda frown on the manufacturer trying to sell direct to THEIR (potential) customers.

Where I was from we generally dealt direct, but by means of actually becoming a dealer first. But there's gotta be a lotta material being bought to get there.

I think I found a paper at B&H Supreme, Fujifilm, 8"×275'. I have a friend who ran a camera store who bought directly from Fuji. They were very low volume. I'm not after cheap, I would just like to find a more substantial paper in terms of thickness than the CA cut sheets I've been using for the last 10 years.
I'm sure that I wouldn't meet minimum requirements for Fuji, I need to call and talk to them.

 

[Mr Bill]

I'm thinking that your friend, with the camera store, likely had dealer status. (When I say "needs a lotta volume" I mean that they, Fuji, would probably wanna steer you to an existing dealer first, except for very special circumstances.)

Hopefully they'll connect you up with someone who'll get you what you want.

 

[koraks]

Do you buy direct from Fuji?

I've ordered from whomever would sell me what I wanted. But my most recent order was with a shop I've convinced to start selling Fuji color stuff and who will also split out boxes of two rolls, and split out boxes of chemistry in a similar way. I generally buy 10" and 12" rolls only, so previously I had to purchase 2 rolls at a time.

Dealers kinda frown on the manufacturer trying to sell direct to THEIR (potential) customers.

Where I was from we generally dealt direct, but by means of actually becoming a dealer first. But there's gotta be a lotta material being bought to get there.

There's always going to be competition and dealers won't be able to do much about that. And they know it, too.

MOQ's will depend on the business you deal with; Fuji or 3rd party. It's not by definition the case that you need to buy "a lotta material" to be able to purchase from Fuji, directly. Maybe it's like that in the US, but elsewhere, it may be organized differently.

I'm sure that I wouldn't meet minimum requirements for Fuji, I need to call and talk to them.

Yes, call them to find out.

Supreme, Fujifilm, 8"×275'.

That's an OK paper, but I would really recommend either DPII or Maxima. Supreme is a lower grade paper than either of the two I mentioned. It's fine, but for amateur and fine art use, where a slightly higher price generally justifies a noticeably better product, I'd stick with DPII if smaller rolls are desired and Maxima if you can work with 12" and larger rolls. That's my personal take on it, anyway, although I spoke to someone this week who purchased paper for fine art use and who received the same advice from a Fuji representative.

had dealer status

That's a bit of an ill-defined term when it comes to Fuji, at least around here. Fuji actually acts as a dealer itself, with many end users buying directly from a Fuji entity.
Purchase volumes will of course influence price. It's very well possible you can get a better price from a 3rd party than directly from Fuji because of this, even if you can place your order easily with either.
Like I said, maybe Fuji US works differently. There's a lot of freedom for Fuji entities to run local business.

 

[mshchem]

I've ordered from whomever would sell me what I wanted. But my most recent order was with a shop I've convinced to start selling Fuji color stuff and who will also split out boxes of two rolls, and split out boxes of chemistry in a similar way. I generally buy 10" and 12" rolls only, so previously I had to purchase 2 rolls at a time.



There's always going to be competition and dealers won't be able to do much about that. And they know it, too.

MOQ's will depend on the business you deal with; Fuji or 3rd party. It's not by definition the case that you need to buy "a lotta material" to be able to purchase from Fuji, directly. Maybe it's like that in the US, but elsewhere, it may be organized differently.


Yes, call them to find out.



That's an OK paper, but I would really recommend either DPII or Maxima. Supreme is a lower grade paper than either of the two I mentioned. It's fine, but for amateur and fine art use, where a slightly higher price generally justifies a noticeably better product, I'd stick with DPII if smaller rolls are desired and Maxima if you can work with 12" and larger rolls. That's my personal take on it, anyway, although I spoke to someone this week who purchased paper for fine art use and who received the same advice from a Fuji representative.



That's a bit of an ill-defined term when it comes to Fuji, at least around here. Fuji actually acts as a dealer itself, with many end users buying directly from a Fuji entity.
Purchase volumes will of course influence price. It's very well possible you can get a better price from a 3rd party than directly from Fuji because of this, even if you can place your order easily with either.
Like I said, maybe Fuji US works differently. There's a lot of freedom for Fuji entities to run local business.

Very good information, thanks for sharing! Best Regards Mike

 

[Steven Lee]

As I continue to dream about building a darkroom, help me understand: how does anyone buy Fujifilm RA4 papers? Freestyle and other online retailers offer only CA, which apparently is meant to be exposed by a color-managed laser. All my online searches only return webpages on Fuji's website, I can't find any online sellers of their papers.

Meanwhile, Fuji is teasing us here without any ability to order any of these options. Is this website made for the EU only? The US is not even listed here.

 

[koraks]

@Steven Lee if you contact Fuji in the US, they should be able to direct you to a distributor of their paper. The distributor in turn may redirect you to a retailer. Alternatively, you could use the contact form on the website you listed and ask where you can get this paper in the US. The person handling these mails will forward your question internally.

I know your frustration and it's one of the things that need to be addressed IMO. While larger labs apparently have no trouble getting their hands on Fuji paper, I see lots of people like you and me with this question. For private individuals and small/niche labs, the channel isn't optimized (yet).

 

[Dirb9]

As I continue to dream about building a darkroom, help me understand: how does anyone buy Fujifilm RA4 papers? Freestyle and other online retailers offer only CA, which apparently is meant to be exposed by a color-managed laser. All my online searches only return webpages on Fuji's website, I can't find any online sellers of their papers.

Meanwhile, Fuji is teasing us here without any ability to order any of these options. Is this website made for the EU only? The US is not even listed here.

You asked about 2 separate issues. The first is that all current Fuji paper, in sheets or rolls, is designed around laser exposure: there is a thread here posted by Koraks discussing that issue. Related, Fuji papers have different names in the US vs Europe for the same papers.
As for availability, all that is left in cut sheets is Crystal Archive II. All other papers are only sold in rolls, if you're serious about color printing, it's worth making a setup to cut down roll paper. Pakor.com and uniquephoto.com have many of the other papers in stock, or can order them in. Here is Fuji's US paper listings: https://www.fujifilm.com/us/en/business/photofinishing/paper-lab-products

 

[mshchem]

As I continue to dream about building a darkroom, help me understand: how does anyone buy Fujifilm RA4 papers? Freestyle and other online retailers offer only CA, which apparently is meant to be exposed by a color-managed laser. All my online searches only return webpages on Fuji's website, I can't find any online sellers of their papers.

Meanwhile, Fuji is teasing us here without any ability to order any of these options. Is this website made for the EU only? The US is not even listed here.

Pakor. Fuji photo paper

Fuji photo paper includes Crystal Archive in matte, gloss and luster.

www.pakor.com

 

[MattKing]

koraks and several others are still able to make excellent colour prints with the current Fuji papers.
The fact that they may be optimized for digital laser exposure doesn't mean that they are not highly usable for high quality optical exposure.

 

[DREW WILEY]

First of all, the cut sheet Fuji paper being sold by Freestyle, B&H, and numerous others, is designed for optical enlargement. I've used plenty of it, and it's a decent middle of the road product. Some find the paper itself a little thin, and you shouldn't expect quite the same level of punch or optimal color gamut as premium color papers, which now come only in rolls. A number of papers currently optimized for laser exposure might do just fine with optical enlargement. Quite a few people are using those already in their conventional darkrooms with good results. But masking skills might come in handy with the now greater shadow contrast built into some of these papers. There are MANY Fuji papers to choose from, and not just three different gloss levels of the same product. Some big retailers offer only certain papers, and many of these only on a special order basis only. I've gotten my last two shipments of big Fujiflex rolls via special order from B&H; and that's the very highest quality RA4 product Fuji makes. But I might consider Pakor for other recent Fuji papers to test, especially the new replacement for Super C, which is a nice thick paper available in many roll sizes.

 

[Steven Lee]

Thank you everyone who replied!

 

[koraks]

You asked about 2 separate issues. The first is that all current Fuji paper, in sheets or rolls, is designed around laser exposure: there is a thread here posted by Koraks discussing that issue. Related, Fuji papers have different names in the US vs Europe for the same papers.
As for availability, all that is left in cut sheets is Crystal Archive II. All other papers are only sold in rolls, if you're serious about color printing, it's worth making a setup to cut down roll paper. Pakor.com and uniquephoto.com have many of the other papers in stock, or can order them in. Here is Fuji's US paper listings: https://www.fujifilm.com/us/en/business/photofinishing/paper-lab-products

Thank you for elaborating! Just a few remarks to update on fairly recent events.

Firstly, the deviation in paper names is a bit of a confusing topic. You'll really have to ask FUJIFILM US what they're selling under which names. All RA4 paper is currently manufactured by the plant in The Netherlands. The US may hold on to some product names because the market is used to them. For instance, 'Super Type PDN' was apparently US-produced DPII and it's possible that the US may keep selling EU-made DPII under this name. Local Fuji branches enjoy a considerable degree of autonomy and it's reflected here.

The only reliable list of currently manufactured papers that I'm aware of is on the originalphotopaper.com website. It's maintained by the Dutch manufacturing people. The website of FUJIFILM US seems to lag behind on recent events. For instance, it still lists the 'canvas' paper that's not produced anymore, and Flex and Trans as well (which were produced in Japan), which are slated to be discontinued, or already are. I know this inconsistency between websites is a bit of a frustration of some Fuji employees because it's apparently really hard to harmonize a variety of websites that are maintained by local entities. Again, it has to do with autonomy of the local organizations.

The cut-sheet situation is such that all sheet cutting happens outside the plant where the actual paper is produced. This plant only produces rolls. Some 3rd parties buy rolls and cut them to sheets, and it's possible that some local Fuji offices do the same (or, more likely: contract out this work to a 3rd party). It really doesn't matter; if you have a retailer who will sell you only Crystal Archive in cut sheet and not e.g. DPII, kindly ask them to offer DPII and/or Maxima in cut sheet as well.

In my mind, it doesn't make sense to only sell the entry-level Crystal Archive products to people who do optical printing. If you ask the people at the paper plant or those close to it, they'll recommend Maxima or DPII for 'analog printing'. If you as the customer indicate your need, the distribution channel may (will) at some point respond.

The fact that they may be optimized for digital laser exposure doesn't mean that they are not highly usable for high quality optical exposure.

This is correct. Fine prints can still be made on these papers, even though they are (all!) optimized for digital.
The emulsions are all the same across the Fuji papers. They are all optimized for digital, but will form an image under the enlarger. There are no 'optimized for analog' FUJIFILM papers in production. I know some of the datasheets still suggest this, but it should not be interpreted as these papers actually being 'designed for' analog printing. They really are not. But they will still work for this purpose.

The difference between the papers is the thickness of the image-forming emulsion layers and the supporting layers (interlayers, protection layers), and sometimes the paper base. The emulsion layer thicknesses influence dmax, gamut and archival stability. There are real and significant differences if you print the same negative on e.g. CA Supreme and DPII and compare them side by side, and this is entirely due to these layer thickness differences. These differences can be exploited, and the general 'rule' is that the cheaper papers (Crystal Archive II, CA Supreme) will give a more muted, less saturated look (but large areas of solid black may render disappointingly when viewed under strong illumination) while the higher-end papers (DPII, Maxima) will give 'punchier', more saturated colors and more contrast, and also more satisfying blacks.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask. I'm in regular contact with my contact at Fuji and he's very enthusiastic about the interaction with the 'outside world', and he's thrilled by what's happening in the analog community, even though it represents a tiny volume for them. Even though I/we may not be able to answer every question, it's already enormously relevant to them to know what kinds of questions 'live' out here in the community so that they may (where possible...) adjust their business processes to optimally suit those market requirements.

PS: if you wonder how these papers are made: have a look at the Kodak videos (smarter every day) on film production. Conceptually, it's really the same. There are a few key differences in how the paper is being produced, but overall it's really a very similar process. Did you know that the speed of coating is roughly 140 sheets of 8x10" per second? It's an amazingly tuned and carefully balanced process.

 

[DREW WILEY]

It would be sad to see the end of Fujiflex. But it's a niche product no doubt expensive to make, requiring a special base, so maybe the handwriting is on the wall. Fuji Japan tends to be inscrutable, so who really knows? Maybe they want to shut down ALL film and print media coating lines there at some point in the not terribly distant future. I adapted to the demise of Cibachrome, and I'll no doubt adapt to the potential loss of Fujiflex Supergloss too, unless I'm just too old at that point to even want to keep using it. What would be nice in the interim is that if US distribution of Maxima wasn't such a mystery. Maybe they're just waiting till reserves of older products run out. But Super C is already being actively replaced by its version 2, and no doubt a worthy objective in its own right.

 

[koraks]

What would be nice in the interim is that if US distribution of Maxima wasn't such a mystery.

I would encourage you to use the contact form at originalphotopaper.com and ask your question there. This achieves two things:
1: The right part of Fuji is alerted to the situation of distribution issues for low-volume users (they know about this issue, but it helps if they hear it from the people who experience these issues).
2: They can forward your question to the right people within the Fuji organization so that they may hopefully come up with a solution, or at least a clear answer.

What I do know about Maxima is that the supply is spotty not just in the US, but overall. There's just a lot more demand for DPII and the lower-end papers, so Maxima runs are apparently rather rare occurrences.