FB paper and cold water

[Elmarc]

I saw the guy lives in Europe. Europe is a big place, and there's a lot of really cold countries. Some of them of lesser financial or physical means, yet still want to carry on their phoography. Good for them. If cold water is all you can manage to wash your prints with, then fine. Use it. It's much better than the alternative. Consider the folks who live in Siberia. Certainly there is a dedicated photographic enthusiest among them. Imagine them going out to gather ice and snow to melt for their hobby.

I was enquiring if anyone here had encountered the same problem, if we can call it that, and if they had found a practical solution. The lack of hot water does not usually hinder my workflow as I am normally out making photos, contact sheets and RC test prints during the winter months. I just so needed to make a batch of FB prints for a specific purpose.

 

[MattKing]

The air temperature can be 20c with a portable radiator installed yes, but can you expand on the suggestion of the large water container and low flow rate please?

First, you have to prepare for a session ahead of time.
Second, you need a fairly large reservoir to store the water that you intend to use.
Third, you should incorporate a wash-aid like HCA into your workflow.
Fourth, do not over-estimate how much water you need. Washing a print is a diffusion process. Past an initial fairly small amount, a continuous slow/trickle flow is just as effective as a faster/high volume flow. You need to have a valve or a controllable siphon that allows you to control the flow.
The volume of room temperature water you need depends on the print washing setup you have, but a flow of 1 - 3 litres a minute should be sufficient, if you are aiming at a change of water every 5 minutes, as Kodak used to recommend. A flow of 1.5 litres/minute, as an example, is not much more than a trickle.
I like to use cascading trays, with the outflow from the top tray flowing into a bottom tray. If you have the space, three cascading trays is even better.
Before use, fill the two or three trays from the tap, and let them come to room temperature.
While the first print is in the fixer, turn on the low flow tap from the reservoir so water starts to flow into the top tray. Try to time it so water has just started flowing into the bottom tray when the print is ready for it.
After the first print is processed and the wash-aid has done its job, rinse it with tap water, and then transfer it into the first/bottom tray.
Leave the print in the first tray for either 1/2 or 1/3 of the total wash - depending on how many trays you have in the cascade - and then transfer the print to the next tray up at the end of its allotted portion of time.
When your print has finished washing, remove it from the top tray and turn off the flow.
If you intend to make lots of prints, you can do several things to help make this work.
a) you can do batch processing by completing the wash-aid step for each print and then transferring the prints to a holding bath. After your printing is complete and all the prints are in the holding bath, you can increase the number of prints that go into the first washing tray, and then handle them in batches. This requires more attention to those prints while they are washing, because you need to ensure that they don't stick together. It is also a good idea to dump and refill the holding bath tray after every few prints are added to it, and to regularly check that prints aren't sticking together when they are there.
b) you can prepare extra amounts of water for the reservoir by filling other containers and topping up the reservoir as yo go through a long session.
Of course, if you happen to have a dedicated print washer that you can feed from the reservoir, some of this is simplified.

 

[mshchem]

My Dad used the greenhouse heaters for seed germination. I can't remember exactly, some sort of simple resistance heating element, extremely low wattage. He would use them in a large metal tray filled with sand. Then he'd place the little seeded peat pots in the sand bath and the heaters would keep it around 75°F.

In practice calling a plumber might be the best option.

 

[Don_ih]

Electric heating a flow of cold water uses a huge amount of power. We have one that warms water for hand washing, bidet etc where the preset temperature is a benefit (not to the level of kitchen hot water temp, or even bath temp) and if I remember correctly it draws 10kW of power. I looked at having one for the darkroom but decided it wasn't worth the trouble and expense.

I have a small one in the darkroom just for getting hot water to mix chemicals. It requires a 30amp 220 breaker.

 

[snusmumriken]

My darkroom is a shed in the garden. I don't have hot water there, and yesterday the water supply was 8 deg C, which is typical for the time of year. I use a kettle of boiling water to warm a bucket of cold water to processing temperature, and that suffices for mixing chemicals and washing film. It probably wouldn't be too onerous to mix sufficient water at room temperature for your print washing, and then follow the cascade process @MattKing describes above, or just a succession of diffusion baths. This YouTube video might help too, especially w.r.t. how little water you really need.

 

[mshchem]

My situation is complicated as I use a big old Pako drum dryer for my fiber prints. Somewhere in the process I need a hardener to prevent the gelatin from sticking to the belt. Toners soften the emulsion as well.
Again as has been mentioned, time and gentle agitation is your friend not huge amounts of water.

I always use Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent

I try to use water 20-24°C

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Okay, for those who don't seem to know the Ilford Optimum Permanence sequence, here it is: https://www.ilfordphoto.com/ilford-optimum-permanance-wash-sequence-fb-papers/

Note the initial wash, the 10 minute treatment in Wash Aid (Hypo Clearing Agent is the same) and the final wash.

Note also the longer wash time for treatment with selenium toner.

The sequence is predicated on keeping fixing times at or under 60 seconds, thereby preventing fixer from being able to penetrate deeply into the paper base (that's what makes the wash times shorter).

It is also predicated on 68°F/20°C water temperatures.

You can still use the method Ilford outlined with colder water, but. -- and this is an important "but" -- the wash times will be longer than those Ilford gives. If the water is significantly colder than 68F/20°C, the wash time (and the treatment in wash aid, if this is also cold) will be substantially longer.

In other words, you can still use the sequence, but you'll have to extend the time proportionally the colder the water is from 68F/20°C. Finding how much compensation you need is not so easy. Many chemical reactions can be approximated by the Arrhenius equation, but washing fiber-base paper is likely more diffusion dependent. Some one of our more scientifically-trained contributors here might be able to give you a table for finding starting points.

However, you could empirically figure it out on your own by using the usual test for residual hypo (which tests for adequate washing). This is the HT-2 test. You'd have to guesstimate a starting point, say 10 minutes instead of five minutes for each wash step and 20 minutes for the wash-aid step (if your wash aid is also cold), effectively doubling Ilford's recommendations for your 54°F water, wash a test print and do the test to see if washing is adequate. If so, you may try shortening the times till you find the point where washing is not adequate. Then you could add a safety buffer, say 10% of the time or a bit more, and come up with a standard time for Ilford's sequence with your water temp. Or vice-versa if your initial test shows inadequate washing.

The good news is that getting the print into running water, even if it's colder than 68F/20°C, should keep the fix from penetrating deeper into the paper base and allow you to use the temperature-modified version of the Ilford sequence. The bad news is that the times might be a lot longer, making it more practical to just place the prints in a water holding tray, and transport them up to where you have warm water for the wash-aid step and a final, longer (30-60 minute) wash in 68F/20°C water.

You don't have to use the Ilford sequence if it's not saving your time or water.

Best,

Doremus

 

[reddesert]

First: are you warming your processing chemicals? Your developer and fixer need to be somewhere around 20 C, certainly warmer than 12 C, or you will get poor results since reaction rates are much slower in the cold (At least that's what I found years ago printing in a cold college-dorm-basement darkroom). You may have printed in these circumstances before, so perhaps you have figured out something to deal with that.

Second, I understand the Ilford method is, as Doremus said, predicated on a short fixing time. You want to get the paper out of the fixer and into water quickly. After the paper is in water, the concentration of fixer is going to start going down, but slower if you use cold water.

If I were in your situation, rather than rigging up an elaborate device to get running warm water, I would do this:
- use a wash aid (such as Hypo clearing agent, I also used Perma Wash years ago, and it seems to have worked, but I rarely printed on FB).
- take the prints quickly from the fixer and drop them in a holding tray or bucket, ideally warm water; however you are keeping the chemicals warm.
- periodically take the prints upstairs and wash in warm running water, as Doremus suggested.

 

[snusmumriken]

- take the prints quickly from the fixer and drop them in a holding tray or bucket, ideally warm water; however you are keeping the chemicals warm.

If the fixer is largely in the emulsion and surface of the paper, wouldn’t the initial wash be more effective in cold running water than in warmer still water? In other words, removal by physically carrying it away, rather than waiting for diffusion.

 

[koraks]

removal by physically carrying it away, rather than waiting for diffusion.

It'll still have to diffuse out of the material (emulsion & paper surface).

 

[Don_ih]

Note that the water can be as low as 35 degrees F.

That is from Kodak Photographic Papers. Also mentioned is that water warmer than 70 degrees does not shorten washing time very much.

I assume they did the tests. So I take them at their word. 35 degrees F is just above freezing.

 

[snusmumriken]

It'll still have to diffuse out of the material (emulsion & paper surface).

Yes, of course. I did say 'initial wash'!

But when it comes to stuff deeper in the paper base, there must surely be more to it than just diffusion? If a matter of minutes in the fixer means that the bad old molecules diffuse deep into the paper base, why doesn't a matter of minutes in the wash diffuse them out again? I assume they must have a stronger affinity for the paper than for water.

 

[koraks]

If a matter of minutes in the fixer means that the bad old molecules diffuse deep into the paper base, why doesn't a matter of minutes in the wash diffuse them out again?

Simply put, they kind of get lost in the paper mesh and it takes them more time to find their way out than they did to find their way in.

I assume they must have a stronger affinity for the paper than for water.

IDK; you'd have to ask a proper chemist this. There's a couple of forces that play a role here that will affect mobility. I don't really know how they balance out in the end.

 

[F4U]

Isn't HCA just mostly re-named sodium sulfite? Seems like I saw that said somewhere

 

[Elmarc]

First, you have to prepare for a session ahead of time.
Second, you need a fairly large reservoir to store the water that you intend to use.
Third, you should incorporate a wash-aid like HCA into your workflow.
Fourth, do not over-estimate how much water you need. Washing a print is a diffusion process. Past an initial fairly small amount, a continuous slow/trickle flow is just as effective as a faster/high volume flow. You need to have a valve or a controllable siphon that allows you to control the flow.
The volume of room temperature water you need depends on the print washing setup you have, but a flow of 1 - 3 litres a minute should be sufficient, if you are aiming at a change of water every 5 minutes, as Kodak used to recommend. A flow of 1.5 litres/minute, as an example, is not much more than a trickle.
I like to use cascading trays, with the outflow from the top tray flowing into a bottom tray. If you have the space, three cascading trays is even better.
Before use, fill the two or three trays from the tap, and let them come to room temperature.
While the first print is in the fixer, turn on the low flow tap from the reservoir so water starts to flow into the top tray. Try to time it so water has just started flowing into the bottom tray when the print is ready for it.
After the first print is processed and the wash-aid has done its job, rinse it with tap water, and then transfer it into the first/bottom tray.
Leave the print in the first tray for either 1/2 or 1/3 of the total wash - depending on how many trays you have in the cascade - and then transfer the print to the next tray up at the end of its allotted portion of time.
When your print has finished washing, remove it from the top tray and turn off the flow.
If you intend to make lots of prints, you can do several things to help make this work.
a) you can do batch processing by completing the wash-aid step for each print and then transferring the prints to a holding bath. After your printing is complete and all the prints are in the holding bath, you can increase the number of prints that go into the first washing tray, and then handle them in batches. This requires more attention to those prints while they are washing, because you need to ensure that they don't stick together. It is also a good idea to dump and refill the holding bath tray after every few prints are added to it, and to regularly check that prints aren't sticking together when they are there.
b) you can prepare extra amounts of water for the reservoir by filling other containers and topping up the reservoir as yo go through a long session.
Of course, if you happen to have a dedicated print washer that you can feed from the reservoir, some of this is simplified.

Thank you for the detailed explanation Matt.
Much appreciated.
I do own a dedicated print washer which is located where there is hot water. I also use a washaid.
It is the very first wash after the fixer that is my concern. Unfortunately I do not have space for a cascading tray system or indeed a large reservoir of water but your suggestion is certainly worth bearing in mind should I have the space in the future. Thank you

 

[Elmarc]

First: are you warming your processing chemicals? Your developer and fixer need to be somewhere around 20 C, certainly warmer than 12 C, or you will get poor results since reaction rates are much slower in the cold (At least that's what I found years ago printing in a cold college-dorm-basement darkroom). You may have printed in these circumstances before, so perhaps you have figured out something to deal with that.

Second, I understand the Ilford method is, as Doremus said, predicated on a short fixing time. You want to get the paper out of the fixer and into water quickly. After the paper is in water, the concentration of fixer is going to start going down, but slower if you use cold water.

If I were in your situation, rather than rigging up an elaborate device to get running warm water, I would do this:
- use a wash aid (such as Hypo clearing agent, I also used Perma Wash years ago, and it seems to have worked, but I rarely printed on FB).
- take the prints quickly from the fixer and drop them in a holding tray or bucket, ideally warm water; however you are keeping the chemicals warm.
- periodically take the prints upstairs and wash in warm running water, as Doremus suggested.

Yes, I do regulate the ambient temperature to 20c with the aid of a portable radiator.
My concern with leaving the prints in a holding bath is two fold.
First, I am under the impression that the initial wash after the fixer is critical to clearing a large amount of fixer and generous flowing water actually helps a lot at this stage unlike the last wash in the print washer.
Second, I can imagine placing the prints directly into a holding bath would make the bath quite fixer laden as the prints would have not benefited from that initial wash.

 

[koraks]

Isn't HCA just mostly re-named sodium sulfite? Seems like I saw that said somewhere

Yes, that's correct.

 

[Elmarc]

The bad news is that the times might be a lot longer, making it more practical to just place the prints in a water holding tray, and transport them up to where you have warm water for the wash-aid step and a final, longer (30-60 minute) wash in 68F/20°C water.

Hi Doremus, Yes, I am very familiar with the Ilford optimum sequence and have followed it for many years with a few small modifications (mainly changes of water or extended wash times) just for piece of mind. Either way, all my prints have always passed the RHT.
Are you suggesting that I wash for longer straight after the fixer or...keep the initial wash as is and wash for longer in the (temperature controlled) print washer?
My only doubts about a holding bath without the initial first wash is that I can imagine that the bath would become fixer laden very quickly unless it was very large. I hope that I have understood your suggestions correctly.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Yes, of course. I did say 'initial wash'!

But when it comes to stuff deeper in the paper base, there must surely be more to it than just diffusion? If a matter of minutes in the fixer means that the bad old molecules diffuse deep into the paper base, why doesn't a matter of minutes in the wash diffuse them out again? I assume they must have a stronger affinity for the paper than for water.

Fixer is absorbed by the dry paper base; it doesn't diffuse into it. The base is like a dry sponge, capillary action wicks the fluid into the paper.

Once the paper is saturated, then the aqueous solution of fixer and by-products needs to be replaced with (relatively) pure water. The diffusion pressure tries to equalize the concentration of the compounds in solution. That's a much slower process. And, as mentioned above, there's a weak (electrical?) bond that forms between paper fibers and the thiosulfates in the fixer. The ion replacement provided by a wash aid helps dislodge these stubborn molecules.

Best,

Doremus

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Hi Doremus, Yes, I am very familiar with the Ilford optimum sequence and have followed it for many years with a few small modifications (mainly changes of water or extended wash times) just for peace of mind. Either way, all my prints have always passed the RHT.
Are you suggesting that I wash for longer straight after the fixer or...keep the initial wash as is and wash for longer in the (temperature controlled) print washer?
My only doubts about a holding bath without the initial first wash is that I can imagine that the bath would become fixer laden very quickly unless it was very large. I hope that I have understood your suggestions correctly.

What I'm basically saying is that if your use of cold water results in wash times that are no different than letting the paper base become saturated and then using a wash aid and warmer water wash later, you're not gaining anything by going to a lot of trouble.

If you have running water, even cold (I assume you do), then a rinse tray with cold running water will remove a large amount of fixer right away. Then you can transfer prints to a holding tray or even cold-water wash, and keep them for a later treatment in wash aid and a final (longer) wash. If the water volume in the holding tray is sufficient, it shouldn't become too laden with fixer. If you have a large through put, use more holding trays or transfer prints to the wash step upstairs more often.

Just do the RHT to make sure you're washing is adequate. Personally, I don't follow the Ilford Optimum Permanence Sequence for a couple of reasons. I just wash a bit longer.

Best,

Doremus

 

[reddesert]

Yes, of course. I did say 'initial wash'!

But when it comes to stuff deeper in the paper base, there must surely be more to it than just diffusion? If a matter of minutes in the fixer means that the bad old molecules diffuse deep into the paper base, why doesn't a matter of minutes in the wash diffuse them out again? I assume they must have a stronger affinity for the paper than for water.

If the fixer is largely in the emulsion and surface of the paper, wouldn’t the initial wash be more effective in cold running water than in warmer still water? In other words, removal by physically carrying it away, rather than waiting for diffusion.

We could try to answer these questions - I think the process of fixer attaching itself to paper is different from the diffusion process, one reason why fiber paper needs more washing than RC paper. I'm also not sure that running water physically carrying fixer solution away is a different physical process from diffusion. But should you trust the answers? We're just making approximations.

Rather than hypothesizing about which should be adequate, I think if one is going to do a fix and wash procedure with FB paper that isn't standard or something already vetted by a manufacturer like Ilford, one has to test for proper washing as outlined above by Doremus.

 

[MurrayMinchin]

Note that the water can be as low as 35 degrees F.

View attachment 392290

That is from Kodak Photographic Papers. Also mentioned is that water warmer than 70 degrees does not shorten washing time very much.

I assume they did the tests. So I take them at their word. 35 degrees F is just above freezing.

35F is a c-c-cold wash!

We've had an abnormally warm winter (only one real cold snap and hardly any snow on the valley floor) and our cold water is running at 4C or 39F. Pretty sure it's been colder in the past.

I used to drain our hot water tank trying to wash 255gsm fibre based prints in a water guzzling Zone VI print washer. Now using 30gsm and lighter papers, so washing is much easier.

 

[Don_ih]

35F is a c-c-cold wash!

It sure is.

And, like I said, if Kodak put it in their Data Books, I assume it's true. The claim is that using Hypo Clearing Agent reduces wash times to ~20 minutes for double weight paper however cold your tap water is. Everyone is ignoring that claim, though.

 

[snusmumriken]

This afternoon I washed some FB prints in our 8 deg C water supply. After Ilford Rapid Fixer (1+4, 2 baths, 1old, 1 fresh, 1 minute in each) each print went into running cold water in a Paterson print washer for 5 minutes, then into a holding bath of cold water until I finished the printing session. Then I washed them all in a Nova Eco print washer for 45 minutes, before toning in Kodak selenium toner. After toning the HT-2 test gave a strong colour, as you would expect because of the thio in the toner. I set the washer going again and went for a walk for an hour. At the end of that, the HT-2 test gave no visible tint. For the sake of seeing what is possible, I didn’t use any wash aid/HCA.

 

[Don_ih]

This afternoon I washed some FB prints in our 8 deg C water supply. After Ilford Rapid Fixer (1+4, 2 baths, 1old, 1 fresh, 1 minute in each) each print went into running cold water in a Paterson print washer for 5 minutes, then into a holding bath of cold water until I finished the printing session. Then I washed them all in a Nova Eco print washer for 45 minutes, before toning in Kodak selenium toner. After toning the HT-2 test gave a strong colour, as you would expect because of the thio in the toner. I set the washer going again and went for a walk for an hour. At the end of that, the HT-2 test gave no visible tint. For the sake of seeing what is possible, I didn’t use any wash aid/HCA.

There was likely still fixer in your paper after the first wash, since you used no clearing agent. A very long wash is required at a cold temperature in that instance - something in the order of 2 hours, maybe? There was very little ammonium thiosulphate in your tray of very very diluted Kodak Selenium Toner. Hardly any would have gone into the paper - more thiosulphate may have been coming out of the paper into that tray. Then the final 1 hour wash got rid of the rest of it. Probably. Maybe.