I was enquiring if anyone here had encountered the same problem, if we can call it that, and if they had found a practical solution. The lack of hot water does not usually hinder my workflow as I am normally out making photos, contact sheets and RC test prints during the winter months. I just so needed to make a batch of FB prints for a specific purpose.I saw the guy lives in Europe. Europe is a big place, and there's a lot of really cold countries. Some of them of lesser financial or physical means, yet still want to carry on their phoography. Good for them. If cold water is all you can manage to wash your prints with, then fine. Use it. It's much better than the alternative. Consider the folks who live in Siberia. Certainly there is a dedicated photographic enthusiest among them. Imagine them going out to gather ice and snow to melt for their hobby.
The air temperature can be 20c with a portable radiator installed yes, but can you expand on the suggestion of the large water container and low flow rate please?
Electric heating a flow of cold water uses a huge amount of power. We have one that warms water for hand washing, bidet etc where the preset temperature is a benefit (not to the level of kitchen hot water temp, or even bath temp) and if I remember correctly it draws 10kW of power. I looked at having one for the darkroom but decided it wasn't worth the trouble and expense.
If the fixer is largely in the emulsion and surface of the paper, wouldn’t the initial wash be more effective in cold running water than in warmer still water? In other words, removal by physically carrying it away, rather than waiting for diffusion.- take the prints quickly from the fixer and drop them in a holding tray or bucket, ideally warm water; however you are keeping the chemicals warm.
removal by physically carrying it away, rather than waiting for diffusion.
Yes, of course. I did say 'initial wash'!It'll still have to diffuse out of the material (emulsion & paper surface).
If a matter of minutes in the fixer means that the bad old molecules diffuse deep into the paper base, why doesn't a matter of minutes in the wash diffuse them out again?
I assume they must have a stronger affinity for the paper than for water.
First, you have to prepare for a session ahead of time.
Second, you need a fairly large reservoir to store the water that you intend to use.
Third, you should incorporate a wash-aid like HCA into your workflow.
Fourth, do not over-estimate how much water you need. Washing a print is a diffusion process. Past an initial fairly small amount, a continuous slow/trickle flow is just as effective as a faster/high volume flow. You need to have a valve or a controllable siphon that allows you to control the flow.
The volume of room temperature water you need depends on the print washing setup you have, but a flow of 1 - 3 litres a minute should be sufficient, if you are aiming at a change of water every 5 minutes, as Kodak used to recommend. A flow of 1.5 litres/minute, as an example, is not much more than a trickle.
I like to use cascading trays, with the outflow from the top tray flowing into a bottom tray. If you have the space, three cascading trays is even better.
Before use, fill the two or three trays from the tap, and let them come to room temperature.
While the first print is in the fixer, turn on the low flow tap from the reservoir so water starts to flow into the top tray. Try to time it so water has just started flowing into the bottom tray when the print is ready for it.
After the first print is processed and the wash-aid has done its job, rinse it with tap water, and then transfer it into the first/bottom tray.
Leave the print in the first tray for either 1/2 or 1/3 of the total wash - depending on how many trays you have in the cascade - and then transfer the print to the next tray up at the end of its allotted portion of time.
When your print has finished washing, remove it from the top tray and turn off the flow.
If you intend to make lots of prints, you can do several things to help make this work.
a) you can do batch processing by completing the wash-aid step for each print and then transferring the prints to a holding bath. After your printing is complete and all the prints are in the holding bath, you can increase the number of prints that go into the first washing tray, and then handle them in batches. This requires more attention to those prints while they are washing, because you need to ensure that they don't stick together. It is also a good idea to dump and refill the holding bath tray after every few prints are added to it, and to regularly check that prints aren't sticking together when they are there.
b) you can prepare extra amounts of water for the reservoir by filling other containers and topping up the reservoir as yo go through a long session.
Of course, if you happen to have a dedicated print washer that you can feed from the reservoir, some of this is simplified.
First: are you warming your processing chemicals? Your developer and fixer need to be somewhere around 20 C, certainly warmer than 12 C, or you will get poor results since reaction rates are much slower in the cold (At least that's what I found years ago printing in a cold college-dorm-basement darkroom). You may have printed in these circumstances before, so perhaps you have figured out something to deal with that.
Second, I understand the Ilford method is, as Doremus said, predicated on a short fixing time. You want to get the paper out of the fixer and into water quickly. After the paper is in water, the concentration of fixer is going to start going down, but slower if you use cold water.
If I were in your situation, rather than rigging up an elaborate device to get running warm water, I would do this:
- use a wash aid (such as Hypo clearing agent, I also used Perma Wash years ago, and it seems to have worked, but I rarely printed on FB).
- take the prints quickly from the fixer and drop them in a holding tray or bucket, ideally warm water; however you are keeping the chemicals warm.
- periodically take the prints upstairs and wash in warm running water, as Doremus suggested.
Isn't HCA just mostly re-named sodium sulfite? Seems like I saw that said somewhere
Hi Doremus, Yes, I am very familiar with the Ilford optimum sequence and have followed it for many years with a few small modifications (mainly changes of water or extended wash times) just for piece of mind. Either way, all my prints have always passed the RHT.The bad news is that the times might be a lot longer, making it more practical to just place the prints in a water holding tray, and transport them up to where you have warm water for the wash-aid step and a final, longer (30-60 minute) wash in 68F/20°C water.
Fixer is absorbed by the dry paper base; it doesn't diffuse into it. The base is like a dry sponge, capillary action wicks the fluid into the paper.Yes, of course. I did say 'initial wash'!
But when it comes to stuff deeper in the paper base, there must surely be more to it than just diffusion? If a matter of minutes in the fixer means that the bad old molecules diffuse deep into the paper base, why doesn't a matter of minutes in the wash diffuse them out again? I assume they must have a stronger affinity for the paper than for water.
What I'm basically saying is that if your use of cold water results in wash times that are no different than letting the paper base become saturated and then using a wash aid and warmer water wash later, you're not gaining anything by going to a lot of trouble.Hi Doremus, Yes, I am very familiar with the Ilford optimum sequence and have followed it for many years with a few small modifications (mainly changes of water or extended wash times) just for peace of mind. Either way, all my prints have always passed the RHT.
Are you suggesting that I wash for longer straight after the fixer or...keep the initial wash as is and wash for longer in the (temperature controlled) print washer?
My only doubts about a holding bath without the initial first wash is that I can imagine that the bath would become fixer laden very quickly unless it was very large. I hope that I have understood your suggestions correctly.
Yes, of course. I did say 'initial wash'!
But when it comes to stuff deeper in the paper base, there must surely be more to it than just diffusion? If a matter of minutes in the fixer means that the bad old molecules diffuse deep into the paper base, why doesn't a matter of minutes in the wash diffuse them out again? I assume they must have a stronger affinity for the paper than for water.
If the fixer is largely in the emulsion and surface of the paper, wouldn’t the initial wash be more effective in cold running water than in warmer still water? In other words, removal by physically carrying it away, rather than waiting for diffusion.
35F is a c-c-cold wash!Note that the water can be as low as 35 degrees F.
View attachment 392290
That is from Kodak Photographic Papers. Also mentioned is that water warmer than 70 degrees does not shorten washing time very much.
I assume they did the tests. So I take them at their word. 35 degrees F is just above freezing.
35F is a c-c-cold wash!
This afternoon I washed some FB prints in our 8 deg C water supply. After Ilford Rapid Fixer (1+4, 2 baths, 1old, 1 fresh, 1 minute in each) each print went into running cold water in a Paterson print washer for 5 minutes, then into a holding bath of cold water until I finished the printing session. Then I washed them all in a Nova Eco print washer for 45 minutes, before toning in Kodak selenium toner. After toning the HT-2 test gave a strong colour, as you would expect because of the thio in the toner. I set the washer going again and went for a walk for an hour. At the end of that, the HT-2 test gave no visible tint. For the sake of seeing what is possible, I didn’t use any wash aid/HCA.
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