Ok, I was just wondering if there was a way to convert the log exposure value to a lux second value that would satisfy Hm for that speed equation you had referenced. Thanks.
My understanding of your post is that your 0.10 density is at Δ0.28 log-H from the left where you began to plot. In the graph below, it would be at 0.40. You can get lxs from log-H. It's just the antilog. If your log-H was actually 0.28, the antilog or of 0.28 is 1.90 making for a speed of 0.80 / 1.90 = 0.42, which is why I believed you were referring to the relative exposure from the beginning of the plot. If this is the case, then you need to find the point of density on the step table that made that exposure and then do the calculation described in the above post.
View attachment 383938
Speeds are designed to make it easier for users. Easier for users, yes, but they still needed to be determined.
View attachment 383932
The adjustment in film speed was partially due to smaller 35mm cameras but not for the reason you suggested. From Safety Factors, "If a large safety factor is used, the negatives obtained will, on the average, be much denser than is required for making a high-quality print. A small safety factor means thinner negatives. The main advantages of negatives resulting from the use of a small safety factor are:
1. Easier focusing of enlargers
2. Shorter printing times
3. Less graininess in enlargements
4. Sharper pictures
a. Greater depth of field
b. Reduced subject-motion blur
c. Reduced camera-motion blur "
"If a large safety factor is undesirable at the present time, why was it thought to be necessary when the American Standards for film ratings and exposure meters were first adopted in the 1940's? The first reason is that exposure meters, camera shutters, and lens apertures were not as accurate in the 1940's as they are in 1959. The second reason is that the camera-exposure latitude of black-and-white films was effectively greater in those earlier years, largely because the increase in print graininess with increase, in camera exposure was not as evident with the large cameras, large negatives, and small degree of enlargement or contact printing then commonly used. The great increase in the number of small cameras in recent years and the increase in the degree of enlargement has made the graininess problem more acute."
Given the same actual emulsion, and everything else being equal, apples to apples, there would be no logical reason to give sheet film more development than 35 mm film. That doesn't make any sense. In fact, the likelihood of a greater degree enlargement in the instance of 35mm would mandate the smaller size receiving more development for sake of higher contrast, and not the other way around.
The reason 8X10 sheet films were sometimes developed to higher contrast in order to create a "thick" density negative was in relation to special long-scale, low-contrast contact printing papers like Azo, or long-scale alt media like Pt/Pd. This old thick negative mentality passed on to conventional silver printing among traditionalists, even though it now became counterproductive in many instances.
Or some practitioners needed dual-usage negatives, suitable for either silver or alt UV printing techniques.
But I'm not going to address the "box speed" debate itself. Characteristic film curves differ, and the same speed classification system which works best for one variety of film might not be equally suitable for another. That's why we need to test the specific repercussions in each case relative to our own personal expectations.
No. The large roll films and sheet films were typically given far more development than was good for 35mm films. I don't think it's a coincidence that using the older ASA speeds gives better results.
Yes, my 0.1 above fb+f is 0.28, and before my last post to you..............I actually did take the anti-log of 0.28 and did arrive at the speed 0.42, but I got confused on what to do with the 0.42 value.............so that helps, thanks.
Just to be clear. Use the 0.28 to find the point of density on the step tablet that produced the 0.10 film density. Find the Transmittance of that value. Multiply the Transmittance with the incident Illuminance, giving you Hm. Determining the actual incident Illuminance will be the hard part.
View attachment 383971
Thanks.........my Stouffer calibrated step #21 is 3.03, and I was mistaken on the log E .28, it's actually .32 for a step density of 2.71 and transmittance of 0.0019
But I'm stuck at the Incident Illuminance value, I've no idea, but that's ok.
Overlaid in the film holder.
Metered and opened up 5 stops?
Sorry yes, spot metered and opened up 5 stops. Unfocused lens at infinity close to a mat board in shaded diffuse daylight.
log-H at Hg is 8/EI. You should use 8 * Shutter speed. 8 * 1/125 = 0.0640 lxs. 0.064 * 25 or 0.0640* 0.32 = 2.048 lxs. If my math is correct.
Shutter speeds are actually rounded so to be as precise as possible; you need to look up the actual value. Now you have an approximate value for your incident Illuminance to plug into the equations.
To hit 0.10 at the point of density you state, the incident Illuminance needs to be for each EI:
100 = 4.2 lxs
125 = 3.36 lxs
400 = 1.05 lxs
I may have missed the meaning of your question before. I read it as using the just black method as a determinant of proper camera exposure and speed rating. If you are asking about the printing methodology of the psychophysical testing done in the first excellent print tests, it is explained in great detail in Jones' paper The Evaluation of Negative Film Speeds in Terms of Print Quality, Journal of The Franklin Institute, 1939.
Fortunately, a nice summary is available in all the editions of Theory of the Photographic Process. From the 3th edition, page 440, "A statistical method was used by Jones to determine the relationship between the exposure of the negative and the quality of the resultant prints. A series of twelve negatives in which the camera exposure was increased progressively from a very low to a very high value was made on each material to be studied. To secure the best possible print from each negative thus obtained, skilled operators were asked to print each negative on several grades of paper, use several printing exposures, quality of the resultant prints. A series of twelve negatives in which the camera exposure was increased progressively from a very low to a very high value was made on each material to be studied. To secure the best possible print from each negative thus obtained, skilled operators were asked to print each negative on several grades of paper, use several printing exposures, and then select from this group of prints the best one that each negative was capable of giving. These series of prints were then arranged in order and were judged by two hundred observers, each observer being requested to pick the first print in each series which he considered “excellent”. This is, of course, a very laborious method of working, but it allowed a statistical selection of the negative which the average observer would consider “satisfactory.” It was also possible to select a print inferior to the “first-excellent” print."
View attachment 383509 View attachment 383510 View attachment 383511
I used 1/4 sec in the test exposure.
8 * 1/4 = 2 lxs
Is there a typo in the examples: you show 0.064 lxs being multiplied by 2^5 (or 32) = 2.048 lxs......................then 0.064 lxs is shown being multiplied by 0.32, but that = .02048 lxs...............have I misunderstood it?
Looks like a typo. There's probably more.
My values start with the meter reading, and then the value when opening up 5 stops. Actually, yours probably includes the 2^5 stop addition since it's your camera exposure setting when shooting. So, 2 * 0.0019 = 0.0038 lxs. 0.8/0.0038 = 210.
Based on the exposure, did you meter for a 125 speed film? Can you post your curve?
Take an incident reading of your subject on a nice clear day. Then bracket your exposures starting at meter reading, then at +1/2, 1, and 1.5 stops. Don't be surprised if your +1 stop prints best."Well, that's funny, because I happen to have Mr. McLuhan right here." - Woody Allen in Annie Hall, 1977.
Take an incident reading of your subject on a nice clear day. Then bracket your exposures starting at meter reading, then at +1/2, 1, and 1.5 stops. Don't be surprised if your +1 stop prints best.
The speed rating is supposed to give you near-perfect exposures if your equipment, film, and everything else is within spec. If you (and everyone else) find that with every (in-spec) camera, lens, and meter that your exposures are insufficient, then the speed rating is wrong. It's that simple. Since the speed rating was doubled in 1960, and you find that half of ISO works better, that means that the revision was a mistake. The conditions that obtained when the rating system was under review ceased to obtain with the newer cameras with focal-plane shutters took over.You made a statement speculating about the reason for the change in the 1960 speed standard. Like Woody Allen in Annie Hall, I brought Marshall McLuhan out from behind a display in a movie theater lobby to settle a disagreement about his book. I quoted C.N. Nelson, who explained the reasoning behind the change in the 1960 standard. A quote from Nelson's own paper on his research and conclusions leading to the change in the 1960 standard. Which you rejected outright as if you knew more about Marshall McLuhan's book than Marshall McLuhan.
View attachment 384017
One again you are confusing exposure and film speed. And just because I am discussing one, doesn't mean I don't understand the other.
Below is a chart of the results from the first excellent print test. The judges found a little additional exposure, from what was determined to be the first excellent print, had a corresponding increase in print quality. Beyond that point people couldn't decisively agree on the order of the prints. Remember the name of the test was first excellent print, not the very best print. The idea is to find the point that is easily identifiable and indicates a limiting factor.
View attachment 384012
And another print quality chart. Quality increases after the First Excellent Print exposure eventually falling off at a rate relative to the enlargement.
View attachment 384015
I've never said you have to exposure at any speed point. As to exposure, I believe I said what ever works best for the individual, so I have no idea who you are patronizingly attempting to explain exposure to.
The speed rating is supposed to give you near-perfect exposures if your equipment, film, and everything else is within spec. If you (and everyone else) find that with every (in-spec) camera, lens, and meter that your exposures are insufficient, then the speed rating is wrong. It's that simple. Since the speed rating was doubled in 1960, and you find that half of ISO works better, that means that the revision was a mistake. The conditions that obtained when the rating system was under review ceased to obtain with the newer cameras with focal-plane shutters took over.
This is the kind of camera that well-heeled photographers used in the 1950s:
View attachment 384018
It had a leaf shutter. With the faster films that became available later in the 1950s, smaller apertures were needed. At these smaller apertures, proportionally more exposure would be given than at large apertures.
This is a focal-plane shutter camera from the late 1950s. Exposures made a small apertures did not present a problem, because the shutter was a focal-plane type.
View attachment 384020
Do you understand now?
Right, shutter efficiency. It is something to consider for the individual while shooting depending on the type of shutter being used. I remember reading something long ago how mechanical variables tend to moderate each others influence on exposure. Is shutter efficiency a potential reason to add a safety factor to your EI that is based on the ISO? Perhaps, or you could use a chart like below. Still that has to do with exposure and not film speed.
View attachment 384028
There is no reason to change the standard for measurement. Just change the number! Go back to the ratings numbers used before!Right, shutter efficiency. It is something to consider for the individual while shooting depending on the type of shutter being used. I remember reading something long ago how mechanical variables tend to moderate each others influence on exposure. Is shutter efficiency a potential reason to add a safety factor to your EI that is based on the ISO? Perhaps, or you could use a chart like below. Still that has to do with exposure and not film speed.
View attachment 384028
Looks like a typo. There's probably more.
My values start with the meter reading, and then the value when opening up 5 stops. Actually, yours probably includes the 2^5 stop addition since it's your camera exposure setting when shooting. So, 2 * 0.0019 = 0.0038 lxs. 0.8/0.0038 = 210.
Based on the exposure, did you meter for a 125 speed film? Can you post your curve?
The speed rating is supposed to give you near-perfect exposures if your equipment, film, and everything else is within spec. If you (and everyone else) find that with every (in-spec) camera, lens, and meter that your exposures are insufficient, then the speed rating is wrong. It's that simple.
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