Film Developing Cookbook - Does one really need to overexpose T-grain film by 1-2 stops and pull process to get satisfactory results?

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Ok, I was just wondering if there was a way to convert the log exposure value to a lux second value that would satisfy Hm for that speed equation you had referenced. Thanks.

My understanding of your post is that your 0.10 density is at Δ0.28 log-H from the left where you began to plot. In the graph below, it would be at 0.40. You can get lxs from log-H. It's just the antilog. If your log-H was actually 0.28, the antilog or of 0.28 is 1.90 making for a speed of 0.80 / 1.90 = 0.42, which is why I believed you were referring to the relative exposure from the beginning of the plot. If this is the case, then you need to find the point of density on the step table that made that exposure and then do the calculation described in the above post.

1732199893182.png
 

Chuck_P

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My understanding of your post is that your 0.10 density is at Δ0.28 log-H from the left where you began to plot. In the graph below, it would be at 0.40. You can get lxs from log-H. It's just the antilog. If your log-H was actually 0.28, the antilog or of 0.28 is 1.90 making for a speed of 0.80 / 1.90 = 0.42, which is why I believed you were referring to the relative exposure from the beginning of the plot. If this is the case, then you need to find the point of density on the step table that made that exposure and then do the calculation described in the above post.

View attachment 383938

Yes, my 0.1 above fb+f is 0.28, and before my last post to you..............I actually did take the anti-log of 0.28 and did arrive at the speed 0.42, but I got confused on what to do with the 0.42 value.............so that helps, thanks.
 
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Speeds are designed to make it easier for users. Easier for users, yes, but they still needed to be determined.
View attachment 383932

The adjustment in film speed was partially due to smaller 35mm cameras but not for the reason you suggested. From Safety Factors, "If a large safety factor is used, the negatives obtained will, on the average, be much denser than is required for making a high-quality print. A small safety factor means thinner negatives. The main advantages of negatives resulting from the use of a small safety factor are:

1. Easier focusing of enlargers
2. Shorter printing times
3. Less graininess in enlargements
4. Sharper pictures
a. Greater depth of field
b. Reduced subject-motion blur
c. Reduced camera-motion blur "

"If a large safety factor is undesirable at the present time, why was it thought to be necessary when the American Standards for film ratings and exposure meters were first adopted in the 1940's? The first reason is that exposure meters, camera shutters, and lens apertures were not as accurate in the 1940's as they are in 1959. The second reason is that the camera-exposure latitude of black-and-white films was effectively greater in those earlier years, largely because the increase in print graininess with increase, in camera exposure was not as evident with the large cameras, large negatives, and small degree of enlargement or contact printing then commonly used. The great increase in the number of small cameras in recent years and the increase in the degree of enlargement has made the graininess problem more acute."

No. The large roll films and sheet films were typically given far more development than was good for 35mm films. I don't think it's a coincidence that using the older ASA speeds gives better results.
 
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Given the same actual emulsion, and everything else being equal, apples to apples, there would be no logical reason to give sheet film more development than 35 mm film. That doesn't make any sense. In fact, the likelihood of a greater degree enlargement in the instance of 35mm would mandate the smaller size receiving more development for sake of higher contrast, and not the other way around.

The reason 8X10 sheet films were sometimes developed to higher contrast in order to create a "thick" density negative was in relation to special long-scale, low-contrast contact printing papers like Azo, or long-scale alt media like Pt/Pd. This old thick negative mentality passed on to conventional silver printing among traditionalists, even though it now became counterproductive in many instances.
Or some practitioners needed dual-usage negatives, suitable for either silver or alt UV printing techniques.

But I'm not going to address the "box speed" debate itself. Characteristic film curves differ, and the same speed classification system which works best for one variety of film might not be equally suitable for another. That's why we need to test the specific repercussions in each case relative to our own personal expectations.
 
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Given the same actual emulsion, and everything else being equal, apples to apples, there would be no logical reason to give sheet film more development than 35 mm film. That doesn't make any sense. In fact, the likelihood of a greater degree enlargement in the instance of 35mm would mandate the smaller size receiving more development for sake of higher contrast, and not the other way around.

The reason 8X10 sheet films were sometimes developed to higher contrast in order to create a "thick" density negative was in relation to special long-scale, low-contrast contact printing papers like Azo, or long-scale alt media like Pt/Pd. This old thick negative mentality passed on to conventional silver printing among traditionalists, even though it now became counterproductive in many instances.
Or some practitioners needed dual-usage negatives, suitable for either silver or alt UV printing techniques.

But I'm not going to address the "box speed" debate itself. Characteristic film curves differ, and the same speed classification system which works best for one variety of film might not be equally suitable for another. That's why we need to test the specific repercussions in each case relative to our own personal expectations.

All films were given more development back in the old days before 35mm became popular. Look in old Photo-Lab Indexes. 35mm motion-picture films were given the least development.
 
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No. The large roll films and sheet films were typically given far more development than was good for 35mm films. I don't think it's a coincidence that using the older ASA speeds gives better results.

"Well, that's funny, because I happen to have Mr. McLuhan right here." - Woody Allen in Annie Hall, 1977.
 
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Yes, my 0.1 above fb+f is 0.28, and before my last post to you..............I actually did take the anti-log of 0.28 and did arrive at the speed 0.42, but I got confused on what to do with the 0.42 value.............so that helps, thanks.

Just to be clear. Use the 0.28 to find the point of density on the step tablet that produced the 0.10 film density. Find the Transmittance of that value. Multiply the Transmittance with the incident Illuminance, giving you Hm. Determining the actual incident Illuminance will be the hard part.

1732244239603.png
 
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Chuck_P

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Just to be clear. Use the 0.28 to find the point of density on the step tablet that produced the 0.10 film density. Find the Transmittance of that value. Multiply the Transmittance with the incident Illuminance, giving you Hm. Determining the actual incident Illuminance will be the hard part.

View attachment 383971

Thanks.........my Stouffer calibrated step #21 is 3.03, and I was mistaken on the log E .28, it's actually .32 for a step density of 2.71 and transmittance of 0.0019

But I'm stuck at the Incident Illuminance value, I've no idea, but that's ok.
 
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Thanks.........my Stouffer calibrated step #21 is 3.03, and I was mistaken on the log E .28, it's actually .32 for a step density of 2.71 and transmittance of 0.0019

But I'm stuck at the Incident Illuminance value, I've no idea, but that's ok.

There are a number of options. Others might have options to offer as I went the sensitometer route and didn't need to do a work-around. It depends on the exposure system you are using. If you are using a camera, log-H can be extrapolated. Less so if you are shooting the step tablet pasted to a window than if it's overlaid in the film holder. Another way is to use an approximation. Make the 0.32 as a reference point to determine changes. If 0.10 falls at 0.42 in an future test, the speed would be 1/3 of a stop slower than your reference. You basically create an arbitrary speed value for the reference and compare everything to it. I believe Phil Davis uses something along these lines with his enlarger exposure approach.

Let me know the method you use to expose the step tablet.
 
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Sorry yes, spot metered and opened up 5 stops. Unfocused lens at infinity close to a mat board in shaded diffuse daylight.

log-H at Hg is 8/EI. You should use 8 * Shutter speed. 8 * 1/125 = 0.0640 lxs. 0.064 * 25 or 0.0640* 0.32 = 2.048 lxs. If my math is correct.

Shutter speeds are actually rounded so to be as precise as possible; you need to look up the actual value. Now you have an approximate value for your incident Illuminance to plug into the equations.

To hit 0.10 at the point of density you state, the incident Illuminance needs to be for each EI:

100 = 4.2 lxs
125 = 3.36 lxs
400 = 1.05 lxs

I played around with a similar method promoted by John P. Schaefer a few years ago. I know I'm forgetting some aspect of it, but I found the results give the same results as Zone System speeds. So, if his method is followed, the resulting EIs are 2/3 of a stop different than the ISO speed. I believe it's the the way he uses to determine the step tablet density or something. Although, you might notice with the 125 speed example above, the exposure from opening up 5 stops from the metered exposure is about 2/3 of a stop different from what the aim should be for your step tablet density point (probably a coincidence). Still, there isn't a sensitometric reason for opening up five stops, opening 5 2/3 or 6 stops is just as legitimate.
 
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Chuck_P

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log-H at Hg is 8/EI. You should use 8 * Shutter speed. 8 * 1/125 = 0.0640 lxs. 0.064 * 25 or 0.0640* 0.32 = 2.048 lxs. If my math is correct.

Shutter speeds are actually rounded so to be as precise as possible; you need to look up the actual value. Now you have an approximate value for your incident Illuminance to plug into the equations.

To hit 0.10 at the point of density you state, the incident Illuminance needs to be for each EI:

100 = 4.2 lxs
125 = 3.36 lxs
400 = 1.05 lxs

I used 1/4 sec in the test exposure.

8 * 1/4 = 2 lxs

Is there a typo in the examples: you show 0.064 lxs being multiplied by 2^5 (or 32) = 2.048 lxs......................then 0.064 lxs is shown being multiplied by 0.32, but that = .02048 lxs...............have I misunderstood it?
 

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I may have missed the meaning of your question before. I read it as using the just black method as a determinant of proper camera exposure and speed rating. If you are asking about the printing methodology of the psychophysical testing done in the first excellent print tests, it is explained in great detail in Jones' paper The Evaluation of Negative Film Speeds in Terms of Print Quality, Journal of The Franklin Institute, 1939.

Fortunately, a nice summary is available in all the editions of Theory of the Photographic Process. From the 3th edition, page 440, "A statistical method was used by Jones to determine the relationship between the exposure of the negative and the quality of the resultant prints. A series of twelve negatives in which the camera exposure was increased progressively from a very low to a very high value was made on each material to be studied. To secure the best possible print from each negative thus obtained, skilled operators were asked to print each negative on several grades of paper, use several printing exposures, quality of the resultant prints. A series of twelve negatives in which the camera exposure was increased progressively from a very low to a very high value was made on each material to be studied. To secure the best possible print from each negative thus obtained, skilled operators were asked to print each negative on several grades of paper, use several printing exposures, and then select from this group of prints the best one that each negative was capable of giving. These series of prints were then arranged in order and were judged by two hundred observers, each observer being requested to pick the first print in each series which he considered “excellent”. This is, of course, a very laborious method of working, but it allowed a statistical selection of the negative which the average observer would consider “satisfactory.” It was also possible to select a print inferior to the “first-excellent” print."

View attachment 383509 View attachment 383510 View attachment 383511


That’s the Hayes’ residence on Willow Pond - It’s right outside my office window.
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I used 1/4 sec in the test exposure.

8 * 1/4 = 2 lxs

Is there a typo in the examples: you show 0.064 lxs being multiplied by 2^5 (or 32) = 2.048 lxs......................then 0.064 lxs is shown being multiplied by 0.32, but that = .02048 lxs...............have I misunderstood it?

Looks like a typo. There's probably more.

My values start with the meter reading, and then the value when opening up 5 stops. Actually, yours probably includes the 2^5 stop addition since it's your camera exposure setting when shooting. So, 2 * 0.0019 = 0.0038 lxs. 0.8/0.0038 = 210.

Based on the exposure, did you meter for a 125 speed film? Can you post your curve?
 
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Chuck_P

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Looks like a typo. There's probably more.

My values start with the meter reading, and then the value when opening up 5 stops. Actually, yours probably includes the 2^5 stop addition since it's your camera exposure setting when shooting. So, 2 * 0.0019 = 0.0038 lxs. 0.8/0.0038 = 210.

Based on the exposure, did you meter for a 125 speed film? Can you post your curve?

It is TMax 100. Yes I can post it but it'll be a little later today, have to go pick up my grandson...............
 
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"Well, that's funny, because I happen to have Mr. McLuhan right here." - Woody Allen in Annie Hall, 1977.
Take an incident reading of your subject on a nice clear day. Then bracket your exposures starting at meter reading, then at +1/2, 1, and 1.5 stops. Don't be surprised if your +1 stop prints best.
 
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Take an incident reading of your subject on a nice clear day. Then bracket your exposures starting at meter reading, then at +1/2, 1, and 1.5 stops. Don't be surprised if your +1 stop prints best.

You made a statement speculating about the reason for the change in the 1960 speed standard. Like Woody Allen in Annie Hall, I brought Marshall McLuhan out from behind a display in a movie theater lobby to settle a disagreement about his book. I quoted C.N. Nelson, who explained the reasoning behind the change in the 1960 standard. A quote from Nelson's own paper on his research and conclusions leading to the change in the 1960 standard. Which you rejected outright as if you knew more about Marshall McLuhan's book than Marshall McLuhan.

1732325988339.png


You are again confusing exposure and film speed. And just because I am discussing one, doesn't mean I don't understand the other.

Below is a chart of the results from the first excellent print test. The judges found a little additional exposure, from what was determined to be the first excellent print, had a corresponding increase in print quality. Beyond that point people couldn't decisively agree on the order of the prints. Remember the name of the test was first excellent print, not the very best print. The idea is to find the point that is easily identifiable and indicates a limiting factor.

1732323179229.png


And another print quality chart. Quality increases after the First Excellent Print exposure eventually falling off at a rate relative to the enlargement.

1732323519700.png


I believe I've said to use what ever exposure works best for the individual, so I have no idea who you are patronizingly attempting to explain exposure to.
 
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You made a statement speculating about the reason for the change in the 1960 speed standard. Like Woody Allen in Annie Hall, I brought Marshall McLuhan out from behind a display in a movie theater lobby to settle a disagreement about his book. I quoted C.N. Nelson, who explained the reasoning behind the change in the 1960 standard. A quote from Nelson's own paper on his research and conclusions leading to the change in the 1960 standard. Which you rejected outright as if you knew more about Marshall McLuhan's book than Marshall McLuhan.

View attachment 384017

One again you are confusing exposure and film speed. And just because I am discussing one, doesn't mean I don't understand the other.

Below is a chart of the results from the first excellent print test. The judges found a little additional exposure, from what was determined to be the first excellent print, had a corresponding increase in print quality. Beyond that point people couldn't decisively agree on the order of the prints. Remember the name of the test was first excellent print, not the very best print. The idea is to find the point that is easily identifiable and indicates a limiting factor.

View attachment 384012

And another print quality chart. Quality increases after the First Excellent Print exposure eventually falling off at a rate relative to the enlargement.

View attachment 384015

I've never said you have to exposure at any speed point. As to exposure, I believe I said what ever works best for the individual, so I have no idea who you are patronizingly attempting to explain exposure to.
The speed rating is supposed to give you near-perfect exposures if your equipment, film, and everything else is within spec. If you (and everyone else) find that with every (in-spec) camera, lens, and meter that your exposures are insufficient, then the speed rating is wrong. It's that simple. Since the speed rating was doubled in 1960, and you find that half of ISO works better, that means that the revision was a mistake. The conditions that obtained when the rating system was under review ceased to obtain with the newer cameras with focal-plane shutters took over.

This is the kind of camera that well-heeled photographers used in the 1950s:

1732327080417.jpeg



It had a leaf shutter. With the faster films that became available later in the 1950s, smaller apertures were needed. At these smaller apertures, proportionally more exposure would be given than at large apertures.

This is a focal-plane shutter camera from the late 1950s. Exposures made a small apertures did not present a problem, because the shutter was a focal-plane type.

1732327229234.jpeg



Do you understand now?
 
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The speed rating is supposed to give you near-perfect exposures if your equipment, film, and everything else is within spec. If you (and everyone else) find that with every (in-spec) camera, lens, and meter that your exposures are insufficient, then the speed rating is wrong. It's that simple. Since the speed rating was doubled in 1960, and you find that half of ISO works better, that means that the revision was a mistake. The conditions that obtained when the rating system was under review ceased to obtain with the newer cameras with focal-plane shutters took over.

This is the kind of camera that well-heeled photographers used in the 1950s:

View attachment 384018


It had a leaf shutter. With the faster films that became available later in the 1950s, smaller apertures were needed. At these smaller apertures, proportionally more exposure would be given than at large apertures.

This is a focal-plane shutter camera from the late 1950s. Exposures made a small apertures did not present a problem, because the shutter was a focal-plane type.

View attachment 384020


Do you understand now?

Right, shutter efficiency. It is something to consider for the individual while shooting depending on the type of shutter being used. I remember reading something long ago how mechanical variables tend to moderate each others influence on exposure. Is shutter efficiency a potential reason to add a safety factor to your EI that is based on the ISO? Perhaps, or you could use a chart like below. Still that has to do with exposure and not film speed.

1732332157005.png
 
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Right, shutter efficiency. It is something to consider for the individual while shooting depending on the type of shutter being used. I remember reading something long ago how mechanical variables tend to moderate each others influence on exposure. Is shutter efficiency a potential reason to add a safety factor to your EI that is based on the ISO? Perhaps, or you could use a chart like below. Still that has to do with exposure and not film speed.

View attachment 384028

The raising of the speed number was intended to reduce exposure. Otherwise, why do it? Cameras like the Contaflex were subject to that issue. Contarexes amd Nikons and Leicas and Pentaxes were not. When using cameras with focal-plane shutters, use 2/3 stop more exposure.
 
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Right, shutter efficiency. It is something to consider for the individual while shooting depending on the type of shutter being used. I remember reading something long ago how mechanical variables tend to moderate each others influence on exposure. Is shutter efficiency a potential reason to add a safety factor to your EI that is based on the ISO? Perhaps, or you could use a chart like below. Still that has to do with exposure and not film speed.

View attachment 384028
There is no reason to change the standard for measurement. Just change the number! Go back to the ratings numbers used before!
 

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The TMax 100 curve . I used @Bill Burk 's Speed Meter overlay to ascertain the Delta-X space on the curve, but I have to admit I don't really understand the concept, that's putting it lightly, lol.

Looks like a typo. There's probably more.

My values start with the meter reading, and then the value when opening up 5 stops. Actually, yours probably includes the 2^5 stop addition since it's your camera exposure setting when shooting. So, 2 * 0.0019 = 0.0038 lxs. 0.8/0.0038 = 210.

Based on the exposure, did you meter for a 125 speed film? Can you post your curve?

The TMax 100 curve . I used Bill Burk 's Speed Meter overlay to ascertain the Delta-X value on the curve, although I don't really understand how to utilize it.......................but that's for another thread.


Film Speed Curve002.jpg
 

Mr Bill

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The speed rating is supposed to give you near-perfect exposures if your equipment, film, and everything else is within spec. If you (and everyone else) find that with every (in-spec) camera, lens, and meter that your exposures are insufficient, then the speed rating is wrong. It's that simple.

Hi, I think when you say "It's that simple." you're going out on the limb a bit.

I spent over 40 years working full-time in photography, with the great majority doing tech-type work in a large lab. Back in the day we kept about 60 or 80 ANSI standards (all current) on file; these included both film speed and exposure meter standards. And we USED, not just read, many of them. I don't recall ever reading what you said in your first sentence.

When you say "is supposed to..." I suspect you you really mean it's something of an ideal as opposed to a requirement. And... I have to say, I don't even really know what a "perfect exposure" is. Now, in the case of professional color neg portrait/wedding films, the manufacturers typically gave some info on achieving a "normal" exposure (as opposed to under or over exposure). It's basically a range of density aims for grey card and skin tones. And... at one time one could buy sets of "printer setup negs," which would include a "normal exposure" negative, allowing one to compare on a video analyzer of the day. So aside from such a so-defined "perfect exposure" I don't know what it really means. At least not in concrete terms.

Should I go on? I don't feel like I can really stop now. Regarding what an ANSI (or ISO) film speed rating means, I mostly take it as a reference point to put everything on a similar basis. A sort of driving a stake in the ground, so to speak. The films I am most familiar with, pictorial b&w and color neg films, both use an exposure point that produces a slight density over "base plus fog." And there are defined conditions for the testing procedure. But... equal ANSI speeds aren't the whole story. Case in point - in the late 1960s I was shooting weddings for a local guy; pro color film of the day was Kodak CPS. A few years later I was doing high-volume portrait shootings (no, not school pix - this was the HARD sort of work) same film, CPS in long roll 70mm. This film was KNOWN to need more exposure than the ASA speed would imply. A few years later I got into lab work where we were doing plenty of sensitometric testing (fresh EG&G sensitometer and an EG&G photo-radiometer to check calibration). It was very clear that the CPS film (Yes, properly processed) had contrast TOO LOW to achieve the density aim values for "normal exposure" when rated at its ASA speed. So... I would say this shows a hard case contrary to the OP'S first sentence.

To repeat... correct ASA speed, properly calibrated exposure meters, correct color temperature of light, but this would NOT be enough exposure to meet Kodak's definition of "normal" exposure.

Now, would we PREFER for the meter to produce a "correct exposure?" Yes, but it did NOT, and the ANSI film speed WAS correct. The obvious fix for this was to derate the film speed on the exposure meter which is what the OP seems to be suggesting, which is a bit different than than saying that the ASA speed was wrong (it was not). A bit more color film history... not long after that came Kodak's new C-41 process and VPSII film. It was also lowish contrast and also needed increased exposure (I'm thinking not as much as the CPS though). A few years later VPSIII was introduced. It started out with a lower contrast, but before too long the contrast was increased in several running product changes... after which it worked fine at the metered ASA speed. I know these things from first-hand experience; each time we received a new emulsion of film we pulled a couple of 100-ft rolls for sensi testing. So we tracked the entire history of VPSIII film in that way, albeit with emulsion numbers unique to my employer (full emulsion runs were reserved for our use).

All this (mostly) in response to "It's that simple."

Ps, as a note, when films, etc., are well behaved, I would guess that the most likely cause for poor exposure would be in the exposure-metering stage. The metering standards are not as rigid as many might think, and are not necessarily aligned with spectral sensitivity of the films used. Further, there are potentially a number of tricky metering situations where the photographer's judgement is important. For example, if skintones are important but shot in a snow scene vs a shaded foliage background, the photographer should ideally know not to trust an overall reflective meter reading. (A close-up skin reading ought to be taken, perhaps compensating for the shade of the complexions; or perhaps an incident meter reading, with hemispheric diffuser, at the subject position.)

I should apologize for getting so wordy, and for going off topic related to t-max films. I'm mainly trying to make the case that things can often be more complicated than we might want to let them be. Often a simpler view works ok, within some limitations; other times a deeper examination may be warranted. I think the last handful of posts, at least, need the deeper examination.
 
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