Film Developing Cookbook - Does one really need to overexpose T-grain film by 1-2 stops and pull process to get satisfactory results?

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The TMax 100 curve . I used @Bill Burk 's Speed Meter overlay to ascertain the Delta-X space on the curve, but I have to admit I don't really understand the concept, that's putting it lightly, lol.



The TMax 100 curve . I used Bill Burk 's Speed Meter overlay to ascertain the Delta-X value on the curve, although I don't really understand how to utilize it.......................but that's for another thread.


View attachment 384081

Bill's graph has always been hard for me to read. It's just too busy. I worked through it, never the less, and it looks like there are no issues with the plotting. The problem is the step tablet density you have for 0.10 is too far to the left for the exposure you gave. For a incident illuminance of 2 lxs, you need to have 0.10 fall at a density of 2.39 on the step table or one stop to the right. So either my math is wrong or you are unknowingly underexposing the test. I personally like to see the 0.10 point fall a little further to the right to exposure a little more toe, but also to leave room on the left side for the tests processed to higher than normal development levels. It makes a family of curves work better.

You can either retest or assume this is the results of the testing method, but consider the EI to really be 100 (which is a realistic assumption). Zero on this, use it as a reference or change the constant from 0.8 to 0.4 (0.4/Hm). Let me know. Hopefully all this isn't just screwing things up for you.

Accurate testing is difficult. That's why the testing equipment tends to be so expensive. That's also why people doing personal testing based on a list 10 how-to-steps shouldn't expect results better than the manufacturers. Just because a test yields a number, doesn't mean the result is correct. I once got into an argument with someone at Kodak because all I had was a calibrated EG&G sensitometer.
 
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Chuck_P

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Bill's graph has always been hard for me to read. It's just too busy. I worked through it, never the less, and it looks like there are no issues with the plotting. The problem is the step tablet density you have for 0.10 is too far to the left for the exposure you gave. For a incident illuminance of 2 lxs, you need to have 0.10 fall at a density of 2.39 on the step table or one stop to the right. So either my math is wrong or you are unknowingly underexposing the test. I personally like to see the 0.10 point fall a little further to the right to exposure a little more toe, but also to leave room on the left side for the tests processed to higher than normal development levels. It makes a family of curves work better.

You can either retest or assume this is the results of the testing method, but consider the EI to really be 100 (which is a realistic assumption). Zero on this, use it as a reference or change the constant from 0.8 to 0.4 (0.4/Hm). Let me know. Hopefully all this isn't just screwing things up for you.

Accurate testing is difficult. That's why the testing equipment tends to be so expensive. That's also why people doing personal testing based on a list 10 how-to-steps shouldn't expect results better than the manufacturers. Just because a test yields a number, doesn't mean the result is correct. I once got into an argument with someone at Kodak because all I had was using a calibrated EG&G sensitometer.

Ok, thank you, this test was done Feb 2023 and I will simply re-do it. I currently am using an expired box of TMX and will re-do it with my next box of new film. Thanks for taking a look.
 
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Hi, I think when you say "It's that simple." you're going out on the limb a bit.

I spent over 40 years working full-time in photography, with the great majority doing tech-type work in a large lab. Back in the day we kept about 60 or 80 ANSI standards (all current) on file; these included both film speed and exposure meter standards. And we USED, not just read, many of them. I don't recall ever reading what you said in your first sentence.

When you say "is supposed to..." I suspect you you really mean it's something of an ideal as opposed to a requirement. And... I have to say, I don't even really know what a "perfect exposure" is. Now, in the case of professional color neg portrait/wedding films, the manufacturers typically gave some info on achieving a "normal" exposure (as opposed to under or over exposure). It's basically a range of density aims for grey card and skin tones. And... at one time one could buy sets of "printer setup negs," which would include a "normal exposure" negative, allowing one to compare on a video analyzer of the day. So aside from such a so-defined "perfect exposure" I don't know what it really means. At least not in concrete terms.

Should I go on? I don't feel like I can really stop now. Regarding what an ANSI (or ISO) film speed rating means, I mostly take it as a reference point to put everything on a similar basis. A sort of driving a stake in the ground, so to speak. The films I am most familiar with, pictorial b&w and color neg films, both use an exposure point that produces a slight density over "base plus fog." And there are defined conditions for the testing procedure. But... equal ANSI speeds aren't the whole story. Case in point - in the late 1960s I was shooting weddings for a local guy; pro color film of the day was Kodak CPS. A few years later I was doing high-volume portrait shootings (no, not school pix - this was the HARD sort of work) same film, CPS in long roll 70mm. This film was KNOWN to need more exposure than the ASA speed would imply. A few years later I got into lab work where we were doing plenty of sensitometric testing (fresh EG&G sensitometer and an EG&G photo-radiometer to check calibration). It was very clear that the CPS film (Yes, properly processed) had contrast TOO LOW to achieve the density aim values for "normal exposure" when rated at its ASA speed. So... I would say this shows a hard case contrary to the OP'S first sentence.

To repeat... correct ASA speed, properly calibrated exposure meters, correct color temperature of light, but this would NOT be enough exposure to meet Kodak's definition of "normal" exposure.

Now, would we PREFER for the meter to produce a "correct exposure?" Yes, but it did NOT, and the ANSI film speed WAS correct. The obvious fix for this was to derate the film speed on the exposure meter which is what the OP seems to be suggesting, which is a bit different than than saying that the ASA speed was wrong (it was not). A bit more color film history... not long after that came Kodak's new C-41 process and VPSII film. It was also lowish contrast and also needed increased exposure (I'm thinking not as much as the CPS though). A few years later VPSIII was introduced. It started out with a lower contrast, but before too long the contrast was increased in several running product changes... after which it worked fine at the metered ASA speed. I know these things from first-hand experience; each time we received a new emulsion of film we pulled a couple of 100-ft rolls for sensi testing. So we tracked the entire history of VPSIII film in that way, albeit with emulsion numbers unique to my employer (full emulsion runs were reserved for our use).

All this (mostly) in response to "It's that simple."

Ps, as a note, when films, etc., are well behaved, I would guess that the most likely cause for poor exposure would be in the exposure-metering stage. The metering standards are not as rigid as many might think, and are not necessarily aligned with spectral sensitivity of the films used. Further, there are potentially a number of tricky metering situations where the photographer's judgement is important. For example, if skintones are important but shot in a snow scene vs a shaded foliage background, the photographer should ideally know not to trust an overall reflective meter reading. (A close-up skin reading ought to be taken, perhaps compensating for the shade of the complexions; or perhaps an incident meter reading, with hemispheric diffuser, at the subject position.)

I should apologize for getting so wordy, and for going off topic related to t-max films. I'm mainly trying to make the case that things can often be more complicated than we might want to let them be. Often a simpler view works ok, within some limitations; other times a deeper examination may be warranted. I think the last handful of posts, at least, need the deeper examination.

If the ISO speed number consistently produces exposures that are insufficient on all B&W films, but not on color negative or transparency films, then the speed rating system for B&W films is wrong. It does: therefore it is. You remember the "sunny 16" rule? That was formulated back in the day, before 1960. Whenever I have tested it, I always get underexposure, by about 1 stop. The rule should be revised to f/11.
 
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MattKing

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If the ISO speed number consistently produces exposures that are insufficient on all B&W films, but not on color negative or transparency films, then the speed rating system for B&W films is wrong. It does: therefore it is. You remember the "sunny 16" rule? That was formulated back in the day, before 1960. Whenever I have tested it, I always get underexposure, by about 1 stop. The rule should be revised to f/11.

Historically speaking, normal exposure for a wedding or portrait photographer would probably be more exposure than many other users would want or need.
I used to print for wedding and portrait photographers. I've also printed for others. And I've dealt with many, many amateur users. The ISO specifications are suited to the needs of the vast majority of film users. The others know well enough how varying from the needs of the majority of film users serves their specialized needs.
If you base your film speed numbers on the needs of those specialized users, most people will end up with poorer results.
 

Milpool

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If the ISO speed number consistently produces exposures that are insufficient on all B&W films,
You’ve made this claim a number of times - that not only do you personally find metering at the ISO speed to consistently produce under exposure (which might be a reasonable statement) for all B&W films (not as reasonable a statement), but that this is also the condition for all other users. What are you basing that on?
 
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If the ISO speed number consistently produces exposures that are insufficient on all B&W films, but not on color negative or transparency films, then the speed rating system for B&W films is wrong. It does: therefore it is. You remember the "sunny 16" rule? That was formulated back in the day, before 1960. Whenever I have tested it, I always get underexposure, by about 1 stop. The rule should be revised to f/11.

If the fault of black and white underexposure is caused by camera shutters, as you have proposed, why don't people who shoot color negative or reversal film with those same cameras have the same problem? There haven't been any major changes in ISO 5800 Color Negative or ISO 2240 Color Reversal since before the 1980s. From Safety Factors, "This result shows that the basic speed of this black-and-white film is approximately two times greater than the basic speed of the color film, whereas their exposure indexes are equal. The proposed reduction in the safety factor for the black-and-white films will eliminate this discrepancy, and will lead to film ratings that indicate the true speed relationships between films."

And ISO 6 doesn't consistently produce insufficient exposures. Unsubstantiated statements and building strawmen does not make a persuasive argument.

Focusing only on shutter efficiency, based on the chart provided, there isn't a consist error across the range of f/stops and shutter speeds. In fact, it appears there is little difference in exposure with the f/stops and shutter speeds most commonly used. And once again, how a camera works has to do with exposure, not film speed. Shutter speed is part of the exposure equation. If a shutter isn't working within an acceptable range, the manufacturer should change how it works or how it is measured.
1732491476208.png
 
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DREW WILEY

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Referring to what Matt just stated : From personal experience, if I were doing a high key "stereotypical" bridal shot - white dress, light Caucasian skintone, etc, I would want to bend TMX100 the direction of old Plus X Pan - expose it and develop to create a conspicuous sag in the curve with upswept highlights.

Let say, it was a couple or group wedding shot instead, with the groom in a black suit, or a mixed ethnicity shot with very different complexions. I'd expose and develop it completely differently.

Then let's say I was doing a personal landscape shot in involving a rather extreme contrast range. A whole different scenario, where I'd try to replicate the very long straight line characteristic curve characteristics which Super-XX once supplied.

TMax was designed in the first place to be this kind of chamelon, yet with much finer grain than the older films. Therefore, different strategies can significantly affect even our concept of film speed.
 
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You’ve made this claim a number of times - that not only do you personally find metering at the ISO speed to consistently produce under exposure (which might be a reasonable statement) for all B&W films (not as reasonable a statement), but that this is also the condition for all other users. What are you basing that on?

Reports from members of forums like this one. All the reports from people who have run a ring-around test like I have has reported that approximately 2/3 stop more exposure than ISO gives ideal negatives.
 
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If the fault of black and white underexposure is caused by camera shutters, as you have proposed, why don't people who shoot color negative or reversal film with those same cameras have the same problem? There haven't been any major changes in ISO 5800 Color Negative or ISO 2240 Color Reversal since before the 1980s. From Safety Factors, "This result shows that the basic speed of this black-and-white film is approximately two times greater than the basic speed of the color film, whereas their exposure indexes are equal. The proposed reduction in the safety factor for the black-and-white films will eliminate this discrepancy, and will lead to film ratings that indicate the true speed relationships between films."

And ISO 6 doesn't consistently produce insufficient exposures. Unsubstantiated statements and building strawmen does not make a persuasive argument.

Focusing only on shutter efficiency, based on the chart provided, there isn't a consist error across the range of f/stops and shutter speeds. In fact, it appears there is little difference in exposure with the f/stops and shutter speeds most commonly used. And once again, how a camera works has to do with exposure, not film speed. Shutter speed is part of the exposure equation. If a shutter isn't working within an acceptable range, the manufacturer should change how it works or how it is measured.
View attachment 384153

I mentioned "faster films after WWII". Did you not see that? Before WWII, films in common use were about 20-64 by today's ISO ratings. With XX and XXX, things changed. Older cameras had top shutter speeds of maybe 1/200 sec. They had to stop down more than with older, slower films. Smaller apertures had to be used with fast films, and that's where the problems came in.
 

Milpool

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Reports from members of forums like this one. All the reports from people who have run a ring-around test like I have has reported that approximately 2/3 stop more exposure than ISO gives ideal negatives.

Reports from people on forums are anecdotal at best. I think rather than having anything to do with tone reproduction, the EIs people report being ~2/3 stop lower than ISO speeds are simply the result of them having run so-called personal EI tests of Zone System lineage (which if reasonably carefully performed will give you an EI 2/3 stop below an ISO speed by definition), and then seeing what they want to see. That isn’t really testing anything, nor is it revealing anything hidden or otherwise about film speeds. Perhaps most importantly, in the vast majority of cases it isn’t related to print quality. It’s just what people have been told to do.

If one settles on an EI that differs from an ISO speed based on consistent experience printing/scanning negatives, that makes sense. If one settles on an EI that differs from an ISO speed because they want a safety factor, that also makes sense. I don’t really think there is much else that makes sense no matter how much word salad/gobbledygook people throw in.
 
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Reports from people on forums are anecdotal at best. I think rather than having anything to do with tone reproduction, the EIs people report being ~2/3 stop lower than ISO speeds are simply the result of them having run so-called personal EI tests of Zone System lineage, which if reasonably carefully performed will give you an EI 2/3 stop below an ISO speed by definition. That isn’t really testing anything, nor is it revealing anything hidden or otherwise about film speeds. Perhaps most importantly, in the vast majority of cases it isn’t related to print quality. It’s simply what people have been told to do.

I would say there are lots of people who do such tests who have no interest in ZS. I am among those. I have several Leicaflex cameras and lenses, all up to snuff. CLA by DAG and Leica NJ. The meters have been calibrated for 1.5V batteries. Back a long time ago, when I was using Nikon and Nikkormat cameras, I found that giving extra exposure gave better results. Are you afraid to try this yourself? Just run a series of exposures (using a high-quality 35mm focal-plane shutter camera) of a typical scene with white houses, cars, streets, trees, and sky, on nice sunny day. I have done this many times, and the results are always better with a little extra exposure (1/2 to 1 stop). I use a Leica 50mm Focotar-2 enlarging lens on a condenser enlarger with dichroic filtration, and set the filtration to give approximately grade 2.5 to 3 contrast. I ran some tests in 2004, and 2022 and 2023. I used Fuji Neopan Acros, Neopan 400 and 1600, TMY-2, Tri-X, HP5+, FP4+, Ilford Delta 400 and 3200. Always the same results. Exposures given 1/2 to 1 stop more exposure printed best.
 
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MattKing

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And many of us have a different experience - in my case, for the last ~ 50 years or so.
And for those of us who have dealt with more casual users who rely on labs, we have also observed how much more consistent and reliable using ASA/ISO speeds is for them, rather than using more exposure.
Your choice reflects your preference, and you should continue to use what works best for you.
For others, the ISO standard is a great starting point, determined appropriately after rigorous scientific investigation, which most won't need or want to depart from. But I'm happy if they should make a purposive and informed choice to do so.
 
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And many of us have a different experience - in my case, for the last ~ 50 years or so.
And for those of us who have dealt with more casual users who rely on labs, we have also observed how much more consistent and reliable using ASA/ISO speeds is for them, rather than using more exposure.
Your choice reflects your preference, and you should continue to use what works best for you.
For others, the ISO standard is a great starting point, determined appropriately after rigorous scientific investigation, which most won't need or want to depart from. But I'm happy if they should make a purposive and informed choice to do so.

I would ask you to try giving a little more exposure (bracketing) and see for yourself. B&W film has a lot of overexposure latitude, but almost no underexposure latitude. It could be that your results are close to optimal, but why not see whether that small additional exposure gives even better results? What kind of equipment are you using? You'll note that I am referring to 35mm focal-plane shutter cameras. I process my own film, carefully, and get consistent results. I formerly used a lot of Neopan 400 and Acutol developer. When T-Max 400 was improved, I switched to it, and when Acutol was discontinued, I switched to FX-39. Now that I have the formula for FX-21, I make that up myself, and get great results with T-Max 400 type II. I cannot speak for what "labs" do, but it would not surprise me if they treat all films the same, thus over-developing the slower ones.
 

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I would say there are lots of people who do such tests who have no interest in ZS. I am among those. I have several Leicaflex cameras and lenses, all up to snuff. CLA by DAG and Leica NJ. The meters have been calibrated for 1.5V batteries. Back a long time ago, when I was using Nikon and Nikkormat cameras, I found that giving extra exposure gave better results. Are you afraid to try this yourself? Just run a series of exposures (using a high-quality 35mm focal-plane shutter camera) of a typical scene with white houses, cars, streets, trees, and sky, on nice sunny day. I have done this many times, and the results are always better with a little extra exposure (1/2 to 1 stop). I use a Leica 50mm Focotar-2 enlarging lens on a condenser enlarger with dichroic filtration, and set the filtration to give approximately grade 2.5 to 3 contrast. I ran some tests in 2004, and 2022 and 2023. I used Fuji Neopan Acros, Neopan 400 and 1600, TMY-2, Tri-X, HP5+, FP4+, Ilford Delta 400 and 3200. Always the same results. Exposures given 1/2 to 1 stop more exposure printed best.

When you say the results with extra exposure are “always better” or that that “printed best”, what specifically do you mean?

Again, if you have found through experience and print evaluation that it is consistently beneficial for you to downrate your EI by some amount vs the ISO speed, I can’t argue against it. I think that would be the right way to settle on a personal EI. However while this might be how you’ve done it for yourself, I highly doubt that is how the majority of people using an EI lower than the ISO speed have done it.
 

MattKing

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I've done that, and remain most happy when for most subjects I use incident metering (typically) and the ISO speed.
I use a variety of cameras and a variety of formats, which means both leaf and focal plane shutters.
I am also experienced enough to vary my exposure decisions based on the qualities of the light and the nature of my subject - but always starting from the ISO speed.
I also have printing preferences, and print mostly using diffused light sources - all of that most likely influences my preference.
I also use Kodak films almost exclusively, so that probably factors in as well.
But the ISO speed remains my consistent starting point, and my choice to use it is most frequently the right one. When I (sometimes) bracket exposure, I choose the "ISO" exposure most frequeently when it comes time to print.
 
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They test it in a lab, not real life. Manufacturer's lie about the actual speed for marketing purposes. Conspiracy theories.

1732502916153.png


Reviewed in 2023. After WWII. Moving on.
 
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When you say the results with extra exposure are “always better” or that that “printed best”, what specifically do you mean?

Again, if you have found through experience and print evaluation that it is consistently beneficial for you to downrate your EI by some amount vs the ISO speed, I can’t argue against it. I think that would be the right way to settle on a personal EI. However while this might be how you’ve done it for yourself, I highly doubt that is how the majority of people using an EI lower than the ISO speed have done it.

How else can you do it? It's the printing quality that matters!

What do I mean? I get good shadow detail and nice contrast overall.

Rodney Dangerfield Looks don't mean nothin'. Now, I got a niece - an ugly girl - she got married; she's happy - she met an ugly guy.

Johnny Carson
Right.
Rodney Dangerfield : And today they got two *very* ugly kids.

Johnny Carson : Ugly kids - yes.

Rodney Dangerfield : ...In fact, they're all so ugly, in the family album, they only keep the negatives.
 
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Mr Bill

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If the ISO speed number consistently produces exposures that are insufficient on all B&W films, but not on color negative or transparency films, then the speed rating system for B&W films is wrong. It does: therefore it is. You remember the "sunny 16" rule? That was formulated back in the day, before 1960. Whenever I have tested it, I always get underexposure, by about 1 stop. The rule should be revised to f/11.

As I said before, I see the ANSI/ISO film speed ratings as something akin to a stake in the ground, to keep all the players on an even footing. For the b&w pictorial films the ANSI standard, as I recall, simply establishes the amount of light necessary to produce a film "density" of something like 0.10 above the "film base plus fog" when certain conditions have been met. This includes, as I recall, "Photographic daylight" as a light source, and development to some specific contrast value. That's about it. (Aside from some statistical details on the number of samples, and holding conditions before processing, etc.). The required light value is then converted to either an ASA-style or DIN number.

The standard does nothing further... it does not say anything about "correct exposure" for a photograph.

You mention the so-called "sunny 16" rule. It seems like you have a bit of a quarrel with that. However it's not part of the ANSI/ISO standard.

Reports from members of forums like this one. All the reports from people who have run a ring-around test like I have has reported that approximately 2/3 stop more exposure than ISO gives ideal negatives.

Something that you seem to be largely skipping over is how you, and the others who report on their results, determine what exposure to use. That is, what is their basis for saying that the ASA/ISO film speed is "wrong?" (Or perhaps it is only YOU making the assertion? I dunno.)

I'm guessing that most are using exposure meters. Now, I'm also somewhat familiar with the ANSI exposure meter standard. So I know that this is potentially much more variable than a film speed standard. And there's a bit of a tenuous relationship between this and the film speed standard. The exposure meter standard looks at a somewhat "mid-tone" level of light, whereas the film speed standard is looking at something near "shadow" level. Further, the exposure meter standard allows for the manufacturer to "tweak" the readings somewhat to account for camera-related matters, such as lens flare, etc.

If you were to say that anything was at fault with your exposure issues, I'd say it's much more likely to be related to the meter than to film speed ratings.

All that aside, I don't have any quarrel with your preference for a "thicker" negative. If you like it better, it's your business...your choice. My objection is to your statements that the ISO film speeds are wrong. I think it would be more correct to simply say that you prefer a different EI, Exposure Index, than the ISO film speed.
 

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Lines on the graph are 0.02 apart every fifth line is 0.10. You can write and read to 0.01 resolution by making use of the space between lines for odd numbers.

Green lines are ChuckP’s calibrated step wedge densities. His x-axis is always going to be correct. The illumination at his film plane can vary with his method.

If we trust the film and Delta-X his x-axis at 2.73 (attenuation) is where -2.1 log mcs (arithmetic .008 mcs) has fallen upon film plane.
 

Chuck_P

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Lines on the graph are 0.02 apart every fifth line is 0.10. You can write and read to 0.01 resolution by making use of the space between lines for odd numbers.

Green lines are ChuckP’s calibrated step wedge densities. His x-axis is always going to be correct. The illumination at his film plane can vary with his method.

Bill, those green lines indicating my calibrated step densities are precisely why I like that graph sheet so much and I enjoy plotting my curves by hand, it suites me well. I can plot across the sheet very quickly.
 
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