Film management in extreme humidity

[Poochayaa]

Hi All,

Couldn't find a thread specifically about this, however feel free to direct me there if I missed it somehow.

I have recently moved to a tropical coastal environment which is currently experiencing monsoons. 90% is fairly standard for the 5-6 months of the year. I've been struggling with managing my film as it keeps getting stuck in various situations. For context, i'm using a mix of DP100, DP400 and HP5, in 35mm, and I use both a bulk roll to self-load my film, as well as the consumer rolls. I also store my film in a refrigerator for shelf life and also as a means to keep moisture out of the equation as much as possible.

I'm encountering moisture issues in the following areas:

1. Loading film from the bulk roll: The bulk roll itself gets stuck and is hard to unwind. I'm afraid the stickiness also causes the emulsion to rip off when loading.
2. Using the roll in the camera: I have 2 primary camera's a Contax G2 and a Nikon F3. My G2's wind motor is often unable to overcome the resistance of the film being stuck, which means my camera stalls out mid-roll after a few shots. I'm also not sure, how to resume from this moment. On the F3 I'm able to manually wind it, however when the stick is real bad, the emulsion comes off the film, which results in patches with missing emulsion when I develop.
3. Loading film onto a Patterson reel: I use a Patterson tank for developing film and I encounter the same issue with the used roll getting stuck once wound after use. Again when I unwind it to load onto the reel I'm afraid the emulsion comes will come off with it.

All 3 of these stages are accompanied by the horrid noise of the film unsticking, which makes me feel like I may damage every shot I take.

1. For problems 1 & 3 I plan to air-condition my room to get rid of most of the moisture when I load into the film cannister and onto the Patterson reel. I believe this should mitigate the tendency for film to stick.
2. However, I am completely lost as to how I should handle the 2nd issue. There's no way I can avoid humidity when I shoot outdoors.
3. For issue 3 would it be advisable to dip my film canisters in water before loading onto the Patterson tank. I wasn't sure if this would make the film any less sticky or if it would cause any damage to the film.

Any ideas or directions to existing guidance on how to handle this would be very welcome. I'm fairly new to the analog process and am just figuring things out. Seems like every time I overcome one problem, there's another waiting just around the corner. Good training for life though!

Thank you all in advance.

 

[MattKing]

Welcome to posting here.
Are you having the same in-camera problems with factory load and bulk load film? I ask because I would think it more likely that the adhesion problems would be caused by moisture getting in at the time you load the cassettes.
As far as loading wet film on to reels, I believe some people have resorted to loading films under/in water, but I know I would find that extremely challenging.
Steel reels might be a better choice for extreme humidity.
I''ve never worked under those conditions - heat and high humidity - but I do know that there is ample historical evidence that many, many photographers have done so with great success. The news photographers who covered the Vietnam war come to mind. I'm sure that some here have had relevant experience

 

[Kino]

I would suggest you get a large food-grade plastic or rubber tub with gasket seals and store your bulk loader and cameras inside with a large desiccant canister. 750 gram canisters are available like this: https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/1014553052?pid=963787&utm_medium=shopping&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Shooting+-+Gun+Safes+&+Storage&utm_content=963787 Something similar could be found on an international website in your region, but most are sold to protect weapons in safes. Good thing is these devices can be "reactivated" by baking them in an oven to drive off the moisture and they can be reused almost indefinitely.

In any event, it's going to be inconvenient but somehow you need to create a dry environment container to return your camera to when out in the field. Look for a rubberized pouch and a smaller desiccant device you can take and use in the field. Return your camera to the bag at every possible moment and keep your spare film stored in the pouch with your camera.

I would then keep everything sealed up until just before you process the film, dry the reels and tank with a hair dryer just before turning off the lights and loading the film. It also wouldn't hurt to store the clean film developing tanks and reels in a similar type storage device.

 

[cjbecker]

I really don't have any recommendations besides the ss reels, but it does make me wonder about the photographers during situations like the Vietnam war dealt with these situations.

One thing might be going from the cold refrigerator to the hot humid weather is going to exacerbate the situation. Try leaving it out in the sealed bag for a bit before loading.

 

[Adrian Bacon]

Hi All,

Couldn't find a thread specifically about this, however feel free to direct me there if I missed it somehow.

I have recently moved to a tropical coastal environment which is currently experiencing monsoons. 90% is fairly standard for the 5-6 months of the year. I've been struggling with managing my film as it keeps getting stuck in various situations. For context, i'm using a mix of DP100, DP400 and HP5, in 35mm, and I use both a bulk roll to self-load my film, as well as the consumer rolls. I also store my film in a refrigerator for shelf life and also as a means to keep moisture out of the equation as much as possible.

I'm encountering moisture issues in the following areas:

1. Loading film from the bulk roll: The bulk roll itself gets stuck and is hard to unwind. I'm afraid the stickiness also causes the emulsion to rip off when loading.
2. Using the roll in the camera: I have 2 primary camera's a Contax G2 and a Nikon F3. My G2's wind motor is often unable to overcome the resistance of the film being stuck, which means my camera stalls out mid-roll after a few shots. I'm also not sure, how to resume from this moment. On the F3 I'm able to manually wind it, however when the stick is real bad, the emulsion comes off the film, which results in patches with missing emulsion when I develop.
3. Loading film onto a Patterson reel: I use a Patterson tank for developing film and I encounter the same issue with the used roll getting stuck once wound after use. Again when I unwind it to load onto the reel I'm afraid the emulsion comes will come off with it.

All 3 of these stages are accompanied by the horrid noise of the film unsticking, which makes me feel like I may damage every shot I take.

1. For problems 1 & 3 I plan to air-condition my room to get rid of most of the moisture when I load into the film cannister and onto the Patterson reel. I believe this should mitigate the tendency for film to stick.
2. However, I am completely lost as to how I should handle the 2nd issue. There's no way I can avoid humidity when I shoot outdoors.
3. For issue 3 would it be advisable to dip my film canisters in water before loading onto the Patterson tank. I wasn't sure if this would make the film any less sticky or if it would cause any damage to the film.

Any ideas or directions to existing guidance on how to handle this would be very welcome. I'm fairly new to the analog process and am just figuring things out. Seems like every time I overcome one problem, there's another waiting just around the corner. Good training for life though!

Thank you all in advance.

are you letting your bulk film come up to room temperature before trying to load it? With that much humidity in the air, as soon as you pull it out of the fridge it’s going to have moisture condense onto it. I’m not saying don’t keep your film cool, but that might be a factor. Once it gets moisture on it, it’s going to take a long time for it to evaporate, even if it’s come up to ambient temps, so how long are you waiting? Some of your issues may be alleviated or at least reduced by keeping the film at or near 18-20C instead of typical refrigerator temperatures that way there’s not quite such a big temperature difference to cause condensation.

 

[Bormental]

It takes a while for humidity to build up inside a roll in a sealed camera, so if you store it in a dry environment I wouldn't expect humidity to become an issue for a few hours when you take your camera out to shoot. Have you thought about something like this? It should take care of your first 2 problems.

 

[Wallendo]

I wonder if your real issue is the film going from a humid to dry to humid to dry atmosphere.

A simple test would be to keep a fresh roll of film and a camera at room temperature in an open room and shoot a roll and develop promptly and see if the same issues occur. Every time a roll of film or a camera goes from a cool area to a hot humid area, there will be condensation. Since cameras are designed to be light-tight, but not airtight, some condensation may be occurring on the film in the camera.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Buying a dehumidifier for the room where you keep the camera equipment and film or running an air conditioner where you live will help part of your problem.

 

[juan]

I lived for many years in Florida where the humidity was usually 85-95% and temperatures for most of the year was above 75F - summers above 90. My personal work used only sheet and commercially rolled roll film and was not usually loaded in an air conditioned space. My bulk loading was done at my newspaper inside a well air-conditioned office then taken outside into the heat and humidity.

That said, I never had a problem such as you are having. I’ve thought about how my results may have been different.

1. Are you using a changing bag or tent? I found those impossible to use even with air conditioning. The sweat from my hands and arms caused too much humidity inside the bag.
2. At home, I kept my film in plastic bags in the freezer, then moved what I would need to the refrigerator for a day to thaw, then put the film out still in the bag to come up to temperature. Then I would load it. The camera was already at temperature. I didn’t make any other effort to reduce humidity.
3. At the newspaper, I loaded the film in the camera inside the office. Both camera and film were at about 72-76F depending on which woman employee had seized control of the thermostat. I carried the loaded camera directly outside into the humidity.
4. In developing, I was never able to get the plastic reels to work well. I thought it was my incompetence, but after reading your post, it may well have been the humidity - from condensation on the reels and perhaps humidity swelling the emulsion.
5. It could be that your near 100% humidity during a monsoon causes problems that my 95% in Florida didn’t.

After this rambling I think you need to be sure your film and loader come up to the outside temperature while sealed in an airtight bag. Load in a room, not a bag or tent. Keep the camera as dry as possible. Use stainless steel reels.

Good luck. I’ll just note that I never had the problems with high temperatures inside a car in summer that some photographers report, either.

 

[jvo]

my 2 cents... re. #2, if most of you photography is outdoors in a humid, hot environment, thats what you need to normalize to, or develop a procedure to bring your equipment to work in that environment.

i was only in goa for a short period and live in florida now. i haven't experience the problems to the degree that you have , but i've always "prepared" for my photography excursions. i have put my whole camera bag, unopened, on the lanai ~1 hour or more before going out - think covered area exposed to temperature but not sun. upon coming into an a/c area, the camera has stayed in my bag a variable amount of time dependent on outside temp and humidity - the hotter more humid, the longer the time.

re. # 1 & 3, plastic and water/moisture don't work. i use ss. you idea of a/c in the room will hopefully do the trick.

good luck... it's all solvable. have fun.

 

[Poochayaa]

Thank you for the detailed responses, some thoughts below:

MattKing:
I'm having the same issues with both factory loaded and bulk loaded film. Ultimately, I think the factory loaded cases are not airtight (although they might be a tad more than the bulk roll cassettes). Humidity eventually gets in. I tried using them on my Fujifilm Tiara Mini DL as well and can feel the motor struggling to wind when the film is stuck. With regards to loading onto the reel. I attempt one round by first pre-wetting the film, and it made the process extremely cumbersome, especially since I use a changing bag. You're right, I'm almost certain photographers have worked successfully in humid places in the past which is why I asked the veterans on this forum!

Kino:
I think the direction of the solution you offered is what I need to do. I've noticed the longer the camera is sitting with the film in it, the more stuck it gets. I'm going to look for storage solutions that enable keeping them in a dry environment. I'm considering buying a dehumidifying camera cabinet. Not only will it be good for my camera's, but I'm also concerned about my lenses getting fungus on them. This cabinet could help with both those issues.

Adrian Bacon:
You nailed it. This is definitely a huge problem when taking film (both rolled and in bulk), as well as paper for printing out of the fridge. I have come up with a technique where I cool & dry the room as much as possible with the air-conditioner, bring the film/paper into the room and then over 2 hours allow the room to slowly return to ambient temperature. It's not ideal, but it seems to be doing the trick for now, with the condensation minimal compared to if I took it straight out of the fridge and started shooting/printing. I hope the dry cabinet will also allow me to keep the temp differential with film.

Bormental:
I had the stickyness start almost an hour after I loaded a brand new film onto the camera. Your suggestion is the option I'm going for. I've found a brand in India that has well priced options.

Juan: Definitely, the changing bag is causing a lot of issues with the amount of humidity that builds up inside it as I'm loading/rolling onto the reel. The biggest issue is the plastic of the reel and the film generate a lot of friction when the humidity is increased, which results in the film getting stuck in the Patterson reel, exactly like you mentioned on your 4th point. I'm currently trying to light seal my bathroom so I can ditch the bag. Fingers crossed. Will try the stainless steel reels if all else fails.

jvo: Thanks, a couple of people have now mentioned getting the equipment temperature to slowly adjust to the outdoor ambient temperature. I think what I will start doing is putting my equipment in a dry bag and placing it outside for an hour before I go to shoot. This will ensure the air inside the bag is not humid, but that the camera is able to adjust to the temperature outside. Let me give that a shot.


Thanks everyone for your advice it's been immensely helpful! I will report back with my results. I'll also share some results of the effect the "sticking" produces on the negative in a few days for anyone to reference in the future. Perhaps it could be an aesthetic style I pursue out of compulsion!

 

[Adrian Bacon]

Adrian Bacon:
You nailed it. This is definitely a huge problem when taking film (both rolled and in bulk), as well as paper for printing out of the fridge. I have come up with a technique where I cool & dry the room as much as possible with the air-conditioner, bring the film/paper into the room and then over 2 hours allow the room to slowly return to ambient temperature. It's not ideal, but it seems to be doing the trick for now, with the condensation minimal compared to if I took it straight out of the fridge and started shooting/printing. I hope the dry cabinet will also allow me to keep the temp differential with film.

I live less than 30 minutes from the Pacific ocean and the humidity is generally always at least 75-80%. I stopped keeping my film really cold and instead just keep it at ambient indoor temperatures. I had many similar issues as you and they largely went away when I did that. I still keep film that I plan to store long term in freezer, but it is in a freezer bag and when it comes out, I put it in the fridge at least a week before I plan to use it and put a little desiccant pack in the freezer bag when it goes in the fridge. Our nights are typically down in the 60s or lower, so when I'm ready to take it out of the fridge, I'll typically do it the night before right before I go to bed and just have it sitting on my desk or dining room table outside of the freezer bag. The next morning, it's at whatever the ambient temperature is in the house and I just go use it. Sometimes if it's really super humid I'll put a little desk fan to blow on it overnight and the next morning it's the same temperature as the room and as dry as it's going to get.

For film I plan to shoot relatively quickly and not store long term, I don't even bother cooling it off. I just keep it indoors either in my lab (which is climate controlled) or just keep it sitting on my desk. I've found that sitting in the same indoor environment that humans sit in for a month or two isn't really committing any major sins. Again, I wouldn't do that to store film long term, but if your indoor environment is generally about 70 degrees, it's not going to destroy it to sit there for a couple months at that temperature.