Graflex Crown Graphic SN

[smithdoor]

What was SN of the very last Graflex Crown Graphic 4 x 5 ever built

Dave

 

[Moopheus]

Probably no one knows. What serial number information you might find on the web for Graflexes has been compiled ad-hoc by users and collectors. It's not even clear that the numbering is really sequential, because the serial number plates were just another parts-bin on the line. It is at best approximate.

 

[Dan Fromm]

Probably no one knows. What serial number information you might find on the web for Graflexes has been compiled ad-hoc by users and collectors. It's not even clear that the numbering is really sequential, because the serial number plates were just another parts-bin on the line. It is at best approximate.

Graflex Inc. and predecessors made several models of press camera (“Graphic”) and SLR (“Graflex”). Owners often wonder when their camera was made. Until the late Theron (Tim) Holden died, he answered these questions on www.graflex.org. See http://ghq.graflex.org/Holden-Memories.pdf for a brief biography.

His answers were collected after he died and were published somewhere on the web as “Shutterfinger’s list of Graflex serial numbers.” As I write, Google can’t find it. My copy of the Shutterfinger list is internally inconsistent.

The information that Shutterfinger collected came from a notebook (or notebooks) that Mr. Holden had assembled from a variety of Graflex’ internal records, including warranty cards. Someone obtained it, scanned it, and posted it on the web as a .pdf shortly after Mr. Holden died; surprisingly, the .pdf has a digital signature dated several years before his death. The .pdf has since been taken down. Practically speaking, it no longer exists.

The notebook makes several things very clear:

Until the late 1940s Graflex assigned serial numbers sequentially in blocks without regard to product. A block of anywhere from one to thousands of serial numbers to be assigned to a product can be followed by another block of numbers for another product. The first s/n in the second block is the last s/n in the first plus one.

The length of time taken to use up serial numbers in a block varied greatly, could range from, it seems, days to years. We can know with confidence when a serial number was assigned but there is often great uncertainty about when the camera bearing it was actually made.

Starting in the late 1940s Graflex assigned serial numbers in blocks by product, so that serial number identified product. From then on, serial numbers in general bore little relation to date. However, Graflex started stamping three character alphanumeric date codes on their products in January, 1950. A code’s first character is a letter, A through M, for month. Its second character is a number, 0 through 9 for 1960 through 1960, then 0 and 1 for 1970 and 1971. The third character is a letter, A through M, for first through twelfth revision. Century and Super Graphics’ date codes are stamped on the bottom of the bed yoke. A fuller explanation can be found at http://www.graflex.org/helpboard/viewtopic.php?t=3321&highlight=date+code These date codes aren’t mentioned in the notebook.

The notebook is incomplete. It starts with serial numbers assigned in 1915, well after the first Graflex was made, and breaks off with the notation “See New Book” after an entry for a batch of 2,500 4x5 Pacemaker – Crown, I think – serial numbers assigned 8/17/1964. This matters for 2x3s because there’s some evidence that Century Graphic serial numbers were assigned as late as 1968.

Graflex started stamping three character alphanumeric date codes on their products in January, 1950. A code’s first character is a letter, A through M, for month. Its second character is a number, 0 through 9 for 1960 through 1960, then 0 and 1 for 1970 and 1971. The third character is a letter, A through M, for first through twelfth revision. Century and Super Graphics’ date codes are stamped on the bottom of the bed yoke. A fuller explanation can be found at http://www.graflex.org/helpboard/viewtopic.php?t=3321&highlight=date+code These date codes aren’t mentioned in the notebook.

The notebook is also less informative than one would like. In particular, from February, 1950 onwards Speed and Crown Graphics are lumped so that it isn’t possible to tell how many serial numbers were assigned to each type. In general, there’s no guarantee that all serial numbers assigned were used. For this reason using the number of serial numbers assigned to estimate the number of cameras made yields at best an upper bound.

Despite these frailties the notebook is the best source we have for estimating when a Graphic or Graflex was made and for estimating production volumes.

Dave, ignore Moopheus' response. He doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

[KenS]

(snip)
For this reason using the number of serial numbers assigned to estimate the number of cameras made yields at best an upper bound.

Despite these frailties the notebook is the best source we have for estimating when a Graphic or Graflex was made and for estimating production volumes.


My Crown Graphic has the Number 435833 on the 'bed'... but I really don't care about 'when' it was made... as long as it keeps going as long as I'm able to 'humph it around'

Ken

 

[shutterfinger]

Dan, date codes were started in 1960 not 1950 as you stated. A 0, 1, 2, or 3 in a date code can be 1960,1961, 1962, 1963, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973.
435833 is 4/5 through a block of 5000 listed in June 1947, blocks of numbers for a model were assigned in1949.
I agree with Dan, serial number records were not a strong suit for Graflex.

 

[Dan Fromm]

Charles, thanks for the correction. Stupid typo somewhere, probably years ago.

 

[Moopheus]

Dave, ignore Moopheus' response. He doesn't know what he's talking about.

I said no one knows what the last serial number is. What you said doesn't contradict that.

 

[Dan Fromm]

I said no one knows what the last serial number is. What you said doesn't contradict that.

True. This

It's not even clear that the numbering is really sequential, because the serial number plates were just another parts-bin on the line.

is what I saw as a SWAG. I could of course be mistaken. Did you work at Graflex?

The non-book makes it clear that blocks of serial numbers were assigned sequentially and that in times of high production blocks were exhausted quickly. In times of low production several years could elapse between assignment of a new block. After 1950 at least one block was issued per year until 1964. So in that period s/n can be mapped to a window no wider than 12 months. For most people this is better than good enough.

But whether serial numbers were issued sequentially or not has nothing to do with whether its possible to know the last s/n issued or used. There's no data available that bears on this.

 

[smithdoor]

Thank you all
Dave

 

[mckay3d]

What was SN of the very last Graflex Crown Graphic 4 x 5 ever built

Dave

I'm not sure this will help in finding the very last Crown Graphic serial number, but it may help date yours.
It's a great site for Graflex/Graphic info. http://graflex.coffsbiz.com/serials.html
Maurice

 

[smithdoor]

Thank you
The last SN is 990198 – crown – 1973? or 1974? presumably a mistake?
My SN is 991201 about 1200 newer the last SN post any where

Dave

I'm not sure this will help in finding the very last Crown Graphic serial number, but it may help date yours.
It's a great site for Graflex/Graphic info. http://graflex.coffsbiz.com/serials.html
Maurice

 

[Dan Fromm]

Dave, the dread Shutterfinger list is incomplete. It doesn't have everything. And there's no guarantee that everything in it is correct. Welcome to the wonderful world of wishful thinking, not to say outright fantasy, on the wonderful world wide web.

 

[shutterfinger]

Dave, what is the date code? I'ts stamped on the bottom of the front cross member of the rails.

 

[smithdoor]

Dave, what is the date code? I'ts stamped on the bottom of the front cross member of the rails.

Yes please look at the photo

Dave, the dread Shutterfinger list is incomplete. It doesn't have everything. And there's no guarantee that everything in it is correct. Welcome to the wonderful world of wishful thinking, not to say outright fantasy, on the wonderful world wide web.

Thank you
I have noted that

Dave

 

[shutterfinger]

Yes please look at the photo

The date code was stamped on the piece of equipment as it left the assembly line. It is independent of the serial number.
Date code is a letter-number-letter.

 

[smithdoor]

Thank you
I will look to see if I have one

Dave

The date code was stamped on the piece of equipment as it left the assembly line. It is independent of the serial number.
Date code is a letter-number-letter.

 

[smithdoor]

The only stamp found in on the bottom in black ink
( F3B )

Dave

 

[shutterfinger]

F3B

F - June
3 - 1963 or 1973 with 978xxx assigned in 1964 it has to be 1973.
B - second revision. A supplier of a part could have changed, this is how they kept track of the part change.

 

[summicron1]

I'm not sure this will help in finding the very last Crown Graphic serial number, but it may help date yours.
It's a great site for Graflex/Graphic info. http://graflex.coffsbiz.com/serials.html
Maurice

Thanks Maurice -- this shows my Pacemaker Speed, Signal Corps KE 12(1) has starting production in 1953. It's only four years younger than I am, and works better!

ct

 

[smithdoor]

Thank you
I may never find out
But I do know it was one of very last ones ever made

Dave

F - June
3 - 1963 or 1973 with 978xxx assigned in 1964 it has to be 1973.
B - second revision. A supplier of a part could have changed, this is how they kept track of the part change.

 

[Tony I]

My Crown Graphic is serial #991758, mfg. code is F3B (June, 1973).

 

[Pioneer]

I think that one of mine was "borrowed" from the US Army at some point. The SN plate is missing but it came in a nice fiber board case with US Army stamped on it. It does work quite well though, and the rangefinder still works perfectly, so the Army must have taken good care of it.

 

[Prof_Pixel]

I think that one of mine was "borrowed" from the US Army at some point. The SN plate is missing but it came in a nice fiber board case with US Army stamped on it. It does work quite well though, and the rangefinder still works perfectly, so the Army must have taken good care of it.

I remember being told when working in a photo store in the late 1950's, that during that the war years military graphics had been considered repairable and parts could be obtained to build a new camera from scratch. One part - I think the lens - was not available this way.