Harman Photo cryptic announcement/teaser

[albireo]

Yeah.. Personally I'd have to see what those quirks are.

To beging to answer my own question, and quoting the datasheet:

HARMAN Phoenix 200 is an experimental C41 colour film and the first ever made by HARMAN Photo. As such it has characteristics that make this very different to the more traditional, established C41 colour negatives films. In addition to the risk of occasional coating anomalies, this film does not have masking dyes and limited antihalation incorporated in the base layer. This means that striking halation effects around bright light sources and reflections are possible. In addition to its atypical colour rendering, this film has a distinctly analogue look when shooting certain scenes and colour palettes

 

[mshchem]

No orange mask

 

[mshchem]

Sounds goofy

 

[brbo]

We'll have to wait for some samples, but unless spec sheet is intentionally selling this film short, this is not even Orwo NC500 level.

This better cost 15+ EUR or else nobody will buy it...

 

[armadsen]

We'll have to wait for some samples, but unless spec sheet is intentionally selling this film short, this is not even Orwo NC500 level.

Agreed, but that's truly not the point. They have to start somewhere, and pouring many millions upon millions of dollars into developing something perfect without releasing intermediate attempts would mean never doing color film at all. I'm planning to buy 10 or so rolls tomorrow just to support them and experiment with. I won't use them for anything important, at least not to start, of course. If it helps Harman progress toward something better so that 10 years from now I can buy great color film from them, I find that well worth it.

In other words, I see the transaction between me and them as something more than the typical I give you money, you give me a product that meets my needs and that's the end of it. It's more like, I give you money, you give me a so-so product, and I hope it helps you do better in the future.

For what it's worth, I spoke to a store owner again today, and they didn't sound like they're expecting any trouble at all selling through everything they receive.

 

[Anon Ymous]

To beging to answer my own question, and quoting the datasheet:

Oh my, coating anomalies? Really?

 

[Overrank]

New Harman Phoenix 200 film leaked online - Photo Rumors

Information on the new Harman Phoenix 200 film leaked online: No related posts.

photorumors.com

It has a shiny emulsion, I wonder if TTL flash will work correctly ? Polaroid “Polachrome” had a shiny emulsion and TTL didn’t work (turned off too soon IIRC)

 

[LeoniD]

Oh, well, so much about a decent consumer film...

Scanning in glass holders and printing without two ANR surfaces will be fun, too.

Emulsion side identification

Unlike some negatives HARMAN Phoenix 200 emulsion has a glossy surface. To determine the emulsion side, view the negatives towards a light source, with the edge signing reading correctly the emulsion is facing away.

Looks decent to me tbh. Reminds me of Svema DS-4.

 

[brbo]

Agreed, but that's truly not the point. They have to start somewhere, and pouring many millions upon millions of dollars into developing something perfect without releasing intermediate attempts would mean never doing color film at all. I'm planning to buy 10 or so rolls tomorrow just to support them and experiment with. I won't use them for anything important, at least not to start, of course. If it helps Harman progress toward something better so that 10 years from now I can buy great color film from them, I find that well worth it.

In other words, I see the transaction between me and them as something more than the typical I give you money, you give me a product that meets my needs and that's the end of it. It's more like, I give you money, you give me a so-so product, and I hope it helps you do better in the future.

I totally agree. I was actually expecting something like this, but then fell for the dream that some here were dreaming (rivalling Kodak/Fuji consumer film in performance and price)...

I'm not rich enough to buy 10 rolls, but I'll get 3-5 if it will still be available anywhere on Saturday.

 

[mshchem]

Agreed, but that's truly not the point. They have to start somewhere, and pouring many millions upon millions of dollars into developing something perfect without releasing intermediate attempts would mean never doing color film at all. I'm planning to buy 10 or so rolls tomorrow just to support them and experiment with. I won't use them for anything important, at least not to start, of course. If it helps Harman progress toward something better so that 10 years from now I can buy great color film from them, I find that well worth it.

In other words, I see the transaction between me and them as something more than the typical I give you money, you give me a product that meets my needs and that's the end of it. It's more like, I give you money, you give me a so-so product, and I hope it helps you do better in the future.

For what it's worth, I spoke to a store owner again today, and they didn't sound like they're expecting any trouble at all selling through everything they receive.

Do you have a local source?

 

[LeoniD]

Looks decent to me tbh. Reminds me of Svema DS-4.

Actually, spectral sensitivity looks similar to DS-4 too

 

[mshchem]

This stuff will be gone in 24hrs. Feeding frenzy!

 

[armadsen]

Do you have a local source?

Yes, the local store I frequent told me they'll have plenty of it (without saying what it is, of course), but to come in tomorrow morning just to be safe if I want some.

 

[Flighter]

A 2-pack for £25.98 at First Call in England
https://www.firstcall-photographic.co.uk/harman-phoenix-c41-colour-film-c-41-135-36-pack-of-2/p13296

 

[mshchem]

Yes, the local store I frequent told me they'll have plenty of it (without saying what it is, of course), but to come in tomorrow morning just to be safe if I want some.

What store? I remember going to a shop in Salt Lake City, about 15 years ago. Small shop, still lots of analog. To the best of my recollection it had been there for decades. Nice store.

 

[Henning Serger]

Thanks Henning for the insight again,

You're welcome.
I know this topic is quite complicated and not so easy to understand for people outside this industry. That is the reason I try to explain the facts here, even if I am repeating my explanations several times.....

In the In an instant Eschede factory visit video, there are some figures that they produce many more million packs of instant film now vs years ago (can't cite it now) which impacts positively on the requirement for color substrate.

Yes, I know the video (a good one, I can highly recommend watching it) and I can confirm this data: I have visited the Polaroid factory in Enschede, too. Earlier than my factory visit in Monheim. And indeed the demand for and production of Polaroid instant film increased significantly in these last years. In Monheim they told me that they are doing coating runs of Polaroid base negative and positive film almost daily. And the demand has further increased since then.
And the quality of the Polaroid film has also significantly increased. I was positively surprised by the quality of their latest film in their latest high(er) quality camera at the Photopia fair in Hamburg this September. Really a different world compared to the results I got some years ago.

Well, and Fuji also makes investments in Instax due to that demand.

Fujifilm has invested a lot over the last 15 years in instax film. A huge success story. Instax film and cameras are a very big mass market. Fujifilm is producing more instax instant cameras p.a. than all Japanese digital camera manufacturers combined (!!).
In the instant film market Fujifilm is by far market leader with a market share of more than 90%.
They are selling more than 70 million film packs (!) p.a., and it is further increasing.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[SilverShutter]

Actually, spectral sensitivity looks similar to DS-4 too

Curious if anyone has any good quality samples images of DS-4? All I can seem to find is badly expired Lomo type shots.

 

[George Mann]

Curious if anyone has any good quality samples images of DS-4? All I can seem to find is badly expired Lomo type shots.

The link that Flighter provided has sample pictures of this new film.

 

[mshchem]

The example photos shown on firstcall leave me unimpressed. Not for me, I'm sure there will be plenty of buyers.

 

[bfilm]

Neither InovisCoat nor FilmoTec have any confectioning capabilities for 135 film cassettes. So far they outsourced their film confectioning to a Chinese partner, what they also confirmed officially.

Thanks for the update. I was hoping they would figure out a way to do this in Germany, but I guess not yet. I thought at one point they were working on that, but if so, then I guess it is not completed.

 

[bfilm]

If the datasheet linked earlier in this thread is genuine, then they do not specify the film base material. This is unusual for Harman. I am hoping it is acetate, as Harman usually use on their 135 and 120 film.

 

[SilverShutter]

The link that Flighter provided has sample pictures of this new film.

Thanks, just saw that now. Certainly a different rendering, but not unpleasing. I thought it was going to be more extreme, judging by their description of it.

 

[LeoniD]

Curious if anyone has any good quality samples images of DS-4? All I can seem to find is badly expired Lomo type shots.

I have several, but I butchered it in dev., so please disregard the streaks. I was just starting back then. The film is still very expired (40 years at the time of shooting), but stored in a fridge. Phoenix will most likely look different due to different dye couplers(in resin vs non-diffusing hydrophilic in Agfacolor derivatives+it's not like Harman just straight up opened copied DS-4, although it's fairly easy to get the complete original recipes), but close

 

[Flighter]

And £14.95 on Ebay - but with free postage!

Or 10 rolls for £139.99 (and £3.29 postage).

 

[Henning Serger]

M14 seems to have several interchangeable coating heads of various widths - the main unanswered question is if Ilford have innovated to get total layers to 10 or less (doable with a single coating head pass) or not - and if that means they acquired a new coating head for this project.

Lachlan, looking at the current leaked information it could at least be possible that Harman is going a "cautious, conservative" approach and using the existing coating head with max. slots for this project.
Then multiple passes are needed. Disadvantage of that approach: Needs more time, has higher production costs.
Advantage: Lower investment costs, less danger of coating problems. That is what the engineers explained to me in Monheim, we standing right in front of the coating head there. They need two coating runs per Jumbo roll, because the second coating head (they were placed in row) of this former Agfa K14 machine was not installed in Monheim.
We have to remember the reason for the very sophisticated high-tech single-pass coating technology at Agfa, Fuji, Kodak 25 years ago: About 3 billion standard photo films were produced at that time (plus instant film), so the coating had to be extremely efficient.
Such an efficiency is currently not needed for Harman's experimental colour film, which will definitely not be produced daily, not even monthly, but maybe 1-3 times p.a. (dependent on the demand).

Best regards,
Henning