Harman Red in E6

[Meinrad]

 

[Anon Ymous]

Nice!

 

[blee1996]

Very interesting results!

 

[loccdor]

What speed did you rate it at?

 

[Meinrad]

thank you all
I shot it with 100 ISO, most frames too dark. Today i shot with 50ISO, its drying, lets see tomorrow...

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Excellent results, I'd say!

 

[Meinrad]

hmm, here is one shot with 50ASA. Scan neutral, developped in Bellini E-6.

Exposure is much better, but most of the pictures look like there had been a major chemical accident :-(
So definetively a film for special occasions...

 

[loccdor]

Honestly much better than I expected! How does the film look on a light table compared to a normal slide? If it's still a little dark, maybe 25 could work even better... I might have to try some experiments too.

 

[Meinrad]

Hello Ioccdor,
please excuse the delay, on the weekends i was in my familys place..
Here i took a picture for you from the light table. Maybe 25 would be ok too but it will not change the weird color rendering i guess. It was wishful thinking of my side that maybe the redscaling could compensate the blue i got with regular Phoenix in E6. So i will continue my experiments with the regular Phoenix, chromemax had some very interesting results with it.
On top is a Ektachrome, below Phoenix Red @ 50ASA

 

[Meinrad]

but maybe you are right, here is one of the better ones

 

[loccdor]

Thank you for the comparison. The green tint could create an interesting artistic mood for certain occasions.

 

[koraks]

It was wishful thinking of my side that maybe the redscaling could compensate the blue i got with regular Phoenix in E6.

Yeah, that obviously won't happen. It'll shift the color balance very strongly towards cyan, as your examples demonstrate.

 

[Harry Callahan]

I think someone did an E6-development of Phoenix (non-Red) and came to the theory that Phoenix could be a tungsten slide film - as he also got a lot of blue. I think he then did apply a color filter in the post to compensate a possible tungsten character and it looked pretty good...

 

[koraks]

came to the theory that Phoenix could be a tungsten slide film

I'm not buying that. It's for all we know and can see an unmasked, daylight-balanced C41 film which is effectively an intermediate prototype on the way to a regular C41 daylight balanced CN film.

 

[Harry Callahan]

I`ve found the video, the theory starts around 5:30min:

Pushing and cross-processing Harman Phoenix 200

If you’re wondering how the new Harman Phoenix 200 fares with cross-processing or pushing, this quick video has the answers!

photofocus.com

 

[koraks]

If you cross-process CN film in E6, you get wonky colors. We usually did the opposite because cross-processed CN negs just looked weird, while cross-processed slides of course had a Nirvana-kind of vibe to it, so we did that for the effect. That the colors are wonky doesn't mean the film is balanced for tungsten. He just happens to get blue slides. So what.

Sorry, that theory is really a crackpot theory. It's the same as encountering a grey cat that's kind of fat and then wondering if it's really a baby elephant, with the animal being grey and fat. Doesn't make sense.

It's just random uninformed youtube babble.

 

[lamerko]

Someone had suggested that Phoenix was based on XP2. I tend to believe it - on the one hand it sounds logical, on the other hand - have you tried reversing XP2? Everything turns blue-green (cyan). I don't know what exactly happens, but... cyan. I guess something similar happens with Phoenix.

 

[ChrisGalway]

If you cross-process CN film in E6, you get wonky colors. We usually did the opposite because cross-processed CN negs just looked weird, while cross-processed slides of course had a Nirvana-kind of vibe to it, so we did that for the effect. That the colors are wonky doesn't mean the film is balanced for tungsten. He just happens to get blue slides. So what.

Sorry, that theory is really a crackpot theory. It's the same as encountering a grey cat that's kind of fat and then wondering if it's really a baby elephant, with the animal being grey and fat. Doesn't make sense.

It's just random uninformed youtube babble.

We've been here before I think ... the guy is actually a chemistry PhD. OK, that proves nothing, but I don't think "uninformed" is a correct description, it's actually his informed opinion ... correct or otherwise.

 

[koraks]

the guy is actually a chemistry PhD

That tells me exactly nothing other than that flinging titles around apparently still works. Maybe I should do that more often, too, but I prefer to discuss on the basis of content instead of appearances.

OK, not an uninformed opinion then - how about a random wild-assed guess that's informed but not on any relevant grounds. Seriously, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever; there's no proposed mechanism, no logic underlying the guess, no nothing at all.

Explain this to me: if you're a business with no active color film products trying to capture a share of a potentially interesting color negative market, knowing that most people shoot this film under daylight conditions. How would it make sense to start out with a tungsten-balanced positive emulsion, that you also have to make from scratch, instead of starting out into the path you're actually trying to walk? The answer is that it doesn't make any sense, and neither is there any credible evidence that Harman chose this route, except from the cross-processed slides of one guy who mistakes the response of this particular film with its specific idiosyncrasies when overexposed and cross-processed for a sign of certain parameters being used as a basis for product development. It just doesn't work that way! It's a ridiculous story.

 

[loccdor]

He says it himself in the video. "I have no confirmation or actual basis to suggest any of this."

 

[lancewielder]

@koraks @ChrisGalway @loccdor

AFAIK, he did later say in a followup video that his initial speculation was misinformed.

 

[Harry Callahan]

If you cross-process CN film in E6, you get wonky colors. We usually did the opposite because cross-processed CN negs just looked weird, while cross-processed slides of course had a Nirvana-kind of vibe to it, so we did that for the effect. That the colors are wonky doesn't mean the film is balanced for tungsten. He just happens to get blue slides. So what.

Sorry, that theory is really a crackpot theory. It's the same as encountering a grey cat that's kind of fat and then wondering if it's really a baby elephant, with the animal being grey and fat. Doesn't make sense.

It's just random uninformed youtube babble.

It was about a year ago i saw this video i think, so i couldn`t remember every detail - neither am i capable of understanding every detail about cross-processing etc. .
But as here someone also got bluish results, i remembered this video and started to wonder if it would help to expose Phoenix like a tungsten film if you cross-process - to get better colors.
Apparently if you cross-process the Red, bluish no longer seems to be a problem - as exposing the film through the base does add red, similar to a color filter to use a tungsten film under daylight conditions.

Whether Phoenix is a daylight balanced negative film or a tungsten balanced slide film meant to be crossed in C41 i don`t want to make a statement about - respectively is irrelevant in this respect.

 

[koraks]

@koraks @ChrisGalway @loccdor

AFAIK, he did later say in a followup video that his initial speculation was misinformed.

Thanks for adding this.

Whether Phoenix is a daylight balanced negative film or a tungsten balanced slide film meant to be crossed in C41 i don`t want to make a statement about - respectively is irrelevant in this respect.

Precisely! "Sort of seems to behave like..." doesn't mean "is designed as...", and from a practical viewpoint, it doesn't matter all that much either.