Harman Red new film

[Don_ih]

Not being transparent about the next incarnation of Phoenix is not a good sign

They weren't "transparent" about the development of Phoenix at all. They teased it for a month and then it was in stores. Their "transparency" was in the form of a disclaimer that it was a work in progress. That disclaimer really should be enough for the customer to decide if it's something for them. In other words, if you want something better, don't buy it.

Red is a similar thing, except more obviously marketed toward people who want weird result. Reversing a colour film and exposing through the back is not a new idea - I've seen it mentioned in books written 50 years ago. So, it's a fun way to get more of that film out the door.

And, while Phoenix seems to be selling well, who knows if they've even used up their initial coating run. Maybe Red is a way to get rid of more of the film a little quicker.

 

[Ivo Stunga]

I got this impression from reading the thread on Harman Phoenix:

First roll of Harman Phoenix photos up!

{Moderator's note: much of this thread was originally posted in the pre-announcement speculation thread. Now that the announcement is official, we have moved most of the post-announcement posts to this thread. The old thread has been locked, and this thread remains open, with the hope that...

www.photrio.com

and watching multiple reviews on Youtube.

A lot of people said something along the lines of "this film is pretty bad, I have no real use for it, but I'll buy and shoot some more hoping that it'll get better, eventually".

They did not promise gold and they did deliver something resembling a color negative film. In the world of Minimal Viable Products Harman is doing quite well.

So it's all based on nothing, really
It's best to step out of that hype train ASAP

 

[BrianShaw]

They weren't "transparent" about the development of Phoenix at all. They teased it for a month and then it was in stores. Their "transparency" was in the form of a disclaimer that it was a work in progress. That disclaimer really should be enough for the customer to decide if it's something for them. In other words, if you want something better, don't buy it.

Red is a similar thing, except more obviously marketed toward people who want weird result. Reversing a colour film and exposing through the back is not a new idea - I've seen it mentioned in books written 50 years ago. So, it's a fun way to get more of that film out the door.

And, while Phoenix seems to be selling well, who knows if they've even used up their initial coating run. Maybe Red is a way to get rid of more of the film a little quicker.

Or, perhaps, they’re smarter than we give then credit. If they read this forum it’s fairly clear that their color product isn’t primarily for serious photographers… so why not focus on a more eager and accepting market segment.

 

[Ben Hutcherson]

I too had hoped that a over a year out from the initial release, we'd have seen more progress. 120 was a pleasant surprise, but as best as I can tell the Phoenix emulsion they're shipping now is still fundamentally the same as in 2023. I have some 35mm from the first batch and some 120 I bought late 2024-I haven't shot any of the latter to compare them, so I really don't know(this release reminded me that I have it, so I loaded up a roll yesterday to try in this nasty weather we're getting, since people are praising its ability to make magic in that sort of light(we'll see if I can do my part to get there!)

With that said, I don't think Harman "owes" us anything on this film. This isn't a Kickstarter where they took a pile of money up front with the promise of a film down the road. They fronted the R&D and production, then made and marketed the product with transparency about it being a "Work in progress."

If Harman shut the whole project down tomorrow, I'd be disappointed, but I still wouldn't feel ripped off or anything of the sort. I've paid for and received several rolls of film. From sample photos, I knew before buying that I wasn't getting Portra or Gold, and it's not that.

With that said, I wonder too if Harman is milking all they can from the current product(including its derivatives like the thread subject red release) while the demand and attention is still there. It would certainly seem smart business at this point to do just that, especially given that it's now been around long enough that people are REALLY learning how to shoot it and post-process it.

We also may well be into diminishing returns territory. Just getting color in the first place was a monumental achievement, but it may well be that the fine tuning hasn't yielded enough of an improvement to get there. How long did it take Kodak to get from their first commercial color film to C-41 Kodacolor II? Something like 40 years? It's more like 60 if you factor in what it took to go from Kodacolor II to the current generation of Portra, and Kodak had the benefit of being able to design both the film and the process in parallel in the case of C-41 films. Harman is designing a product to match an existing process, something plenty of others(including Fuji and Agfa) have successfully done, but generally with some history in color before releasing a C-41 film.

 

[Alessandro Serrao]

Folks, can anyone gimme a valid reason why a 1 liter bottle of Ilford rapid fixer costs 22$ while Kodafix liter costs 15$?

 

[BrianShaw]

Folks, can anyone gimme a valid reason why a 1 liter bottle of Ilford rapid fixer costs 22$ while Kodafix liter costs 15$?

Perhaps because it is multifunctional: works for both standard and red films. Kodak only works for standard films.

 

[Don_ih]

Perhaps because it is multifunctional: works for both standard and red films. Kodak only works for standard films.

You may be right, but I think Kodak only works for unfixed films. Ilford works for films you want fixed.

 

[Alessandro Serrao]

See folks, that's the answer I was expecting from you both...

 

[Don_ih]

Well the fact is, only Harman and Kodak can tell you why they charge what they charge for their products. So perhaps you should ask them?

 

[BrianShaw]

See folks, that's the answer I was expecting from you both...

Im happy to be both predictable and at your service.

 

[pentaxuser]

Folks, can anyone gimme a valid reason why a 1 liter bottle of Ilford rapid fixer costs 22$ while Kodafix liter costs 15$?

Can I take it that this is a price in the U.S. as you have used the $ sign and if so from which retailer or is this a price in Europe and again from which retailer?

There is of course a GB price that Ilford charges its direct U.K customers and you may have converted it to $ but this may not have a direct relationship to any actual price either is Europe or the U.S.

Comparisons are not straightforward

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[koraks]

Can I take it that this is a price in the U.S. as you have used the $ sign and if so from which retailer or is this a price in Europe and again from which retailer?

I just checked with retrocamera.be and I see a similar pattern.

There is of course a GB price that Ilford charges its direct U.K customers and you may have converted it to $ but this may not have a direct relationship to any actual price either is Europe or the U.S.

That's a valid point given the costs of international shipping, taxes, duties etc. However, the question then still remains in what tax area Ilford fixer is manufactured. It wouldn't surprise me that the Ilford fixer we buy here on mainland Europe is in fact manufactured on mainland Europe, in a large part to work around the taxation issue.

 

[loccdor]

They weren't "transparent" about the development of Phoenix at all.

Depends what you compare them to.

Kodak in the redevelopment of all their films, touting them as finer grain without also mentioning they were lowering resolution...

Rollei selling 3 products as different items when they are all the exact same film...

Fuji selling rebranded Kodak with the name of an old Fuji product, and sharing nothing about future production...

I actually think Ilford/Harman come out looking pretty decent on balance with the competition.

 

[Ivo Stunga]

And I appreciate Ilford being down to Earth and listening to their customers. I don't get similar vibes from Kodak, Fuji.

 

[Don_ih]

Depends what you compare them to.

I only meant they didn't tell anyone they were researching C41 film until they already had some in 35mm to sell. They tend to be forthcoming about what they're doing.

If you were to ask them, I'm sure they'd say they're specifically targeting the Lomography-type market with the Red film.

Fuji selling rebranded Kodak with the name of an old Fuji product, and sharing nothing about future production.

I think it's pretty clear Fuji has been edging out of film production. But wasn't the Fuji-branded-kodak film temporary? Aren't they back to selling their own, now?

 

[brbo]

I think it's pretty clear Fuji has been edging out of film production. But wasn't the Fuji-branded-kodak film temporary? Aren't they back to selling their own, now?

No. First they replaced their FujiFilm C200 with FujiFilm 200 and later they added FujiFilm 400 (FujiColor Superia X-TRA 400 was cancelled). Both of them, FujiFilm 200 and FujiFilm 400, always were and still are produced by Kodak.

 

[Ivo Stunga]

Is the recipe the same or just repackaged Kodak film?

 

[koraks]

Is the recipe the same or just repackaged Kodak film?

AFAIK the films are Kodak films all the way through. The only Fuji aspect is the printing on the box.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Wait a minute... I can use my Ilford Rapid fix for fixing colour film??

 

[koraks]

Yes; 'officially' you're not supposed to use an acid fixer on color film, but today's color films generally don't bother one way or another. This is especially the case if you wash thoroughly afterwards.
Here's a nice test you can try: take a normal dilution colorless stop bath - or just a teaspoon of citric acid in a pint of water, or something else nice & acidic. Now dunk a strip of let's say Ektar into water for half a minute, and then into the acidif bath, but only halfway, and let sit for 10 seconds or so. Take it out and observe the difference in color between the acidified part and the pH neutral part of the film. You'll notice the acidic part has lost some of its color. Now wash the same strip and see how it magically goes back to normal.

 

[Film-Niko]

I still hope they are, but facing some (predictable) difficulties.

They are definitely working with full energy on their R&D research for color negative film. But developing new color film is extremely difficult.
I highly recommend to read R. Shanebrook's excellent book "Making Kodak Film". And in addition to watch the 3-part series about Kodak film manufacturing on the "Smarter every day" youtube channel.

Harman - or anyone else - cannot do with a much smaller team what Kodak, Fujifilm, Agfa, Ferrania, Sakura / Konica have done for many decades with much much bigger teams and much much higher funding.
Harman had started a very long lasting "travel": A travel for many years and decades.

We certainly will not see a new, improved emulsion "every year". That is an unrealistic expectation, which will only result in disappointment.
This excellent project needs time and patience.

Not being transparent about the next incarnation of Phoenix is not a good sign especially considering that we the consumers are funding this development, at least partially.

Concerning the "funding" Harman has choosen the best and most fair approach for their customers:
- those who want to support their efforts can buy their Phoenix 200 and Red films
- no one is forced to buy anything from them
- if you are not interested in their color film, just use their BW film - all is fine.


I think Harman is doing the right approach here with this new Harman Red film:
- they are using the existing Phoenix film, therefore no additional film R&D costs
- only a new cardboard box and the red lid for the plastic canister are used, so very low additional costs for the product
- an additional niche of customers can be served, a completely new niche for Harman, so this film creates additional demand for Phoenix
- therefore additional income for further color film R&D.

It is a win-win situation for Harman and their customers. Including those customers who are not interested in this film.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Yes; 'officially' you're not supposed to use an acid fixer on color film, but today's color films generally don't bother one way or another. This is especially the case if you wash thoroughly afterwards.
Here's a nice test you can try: take a normal dilution colorless stop bath - or just a teaspoon of citric acid in a pint of water, or something else nice & acidic. Now dunk a strip of let's say Ektar into water for half a minute, and then into the acidif bath, but only halfway, and let sit for 10 seconds or so. Take it out and observe the difference in color between the acidified part and the pH neutral part of the film. You'll notice the acidic part has lost some of its color. Now wash the same strip and see how it magically goes back to normal.

Thank you, koraks! I'll definitely give it a try!

 

[Marcelo Paniagua]

All in all, I consider Ilford/Harman the most "transparent" and communicative film company. For starters, not sure if any other of the companies does a ULF sale and have film types for multiple levels/budgets. My money have been with Ilford/Harman for the last 15 years, with the occasional indulgence of TMAX, Arista (when I just want something to use) and some 70mm rolls of Aviphot.

 

[foc]

I think Harman is doing the right approach here with this new Harman Red film:
- they are using the existing Phoenix film, therefore no additional film R&D costs
- only a new cardboard box and the red lid for the plastic canister are used, so very low additional costs for the product
- an additional niche of customers can be served, a completely new niche for Harman, so this film creates additional demand for Phoenix
- therefore additional income for further color film R&D.

It is a win-win situation for Harman and their customers. Including those customers who are not interested in this film.

+1

 

[JParker]

That the Harman Red has a relatively high effective speed compared to other Redscale films makes it even more interesting for me.
I've not been into this Redscale thing so far, but trying some new stuff.......probably I will enjoy it, having fun.
I intend to buy some.