Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

[twelvetone12]

Hahaha I know the basics quite well, I'm from Bologna (but live abroad and miss it a lot!)

 

[Photo Engineer]

And Rabbit is quite tasty! Tastes like chicken.

PE

 

[Nzoomed]

I'm not directly able to confirm that, however our stock of chemistry came directly from the former operations. It's plausible that they used up all of the "newer" components in their final runs, but it seems unlikely to be the case across the board. I'll pose the question to the founders and report back.

Thanks,
Will be interesting to hear back!

 

[FILM Ferrania]

Are you able to tell me if some of these same 50+ year old chemicals had been used right up to the last coating run by Ferrania Technologies?

Follow-up...

I spoke directly with Nico and Marco yesterday and asked about the 50 year old chemistry.

According to Marco, the vast majority of our "inherited" chemistry is in the form of intermediate products that, YES, were used right up to the end of Ferrania's final coating run.

Ferrania developed a policy way back in the 1930s that they would produce intermediate components in bulk and in a way that keeps them stable for very long periods of time - and only use them "on demand" to create finished chemistry for production. Some of the science was a bit over my head, but Marco claims that this practice was unique to Ferrania among major manufacturers, and it's this very practice that allows us to use many components that are 20, 30, even 50 years old. In fact, without this long-standing practice, and our inheritance of tons of these intermediate products, it's possible this project would never have moved forward.

The reason we have decided to synthesize a few new components is because of the gap in time between Ferrania's last production run and our taking over the LRF. During that time, as you might assume, many of these intermediate products were not properly stored. And of course there was a time even after we moved everything to the LRF when we had no climate control. If there had not been this "break" in the storage conditions, we would still be able to use everything... In the case of some components, all we had to do was put them in a desiccant "oven" for a short time to return them to usability. Other components, however, slipped below the purity standards we require and although we could use them, it is better to keep them as reference materials only and synthesize new stuff.

I found this conversation entirely fascinating and it was actually the longest I've spoken to Marco in some time. He was quite passionate and animated when discussing this topic.

So thank you Nzoomed!

 

[flavio81]

Thanks Dave!

Personally i don't care if they choose to use the "old stock" if they think it is OK. They know what they are doing. And it's much better if they use these chemicals instead of having them stored around.

As for the synthesis lab, it seems really interesting, let's hope they have success in creating whatever chemicals they need!

 

[Nzoomed]

Follow-up...

I spoke directly with Nico and Marco yesterday and asked about the 50 year old chemistry.

According to Marco, the vast majority of our "inherited" chemistry is in the form of intermediate products that, YES, were used right up to the end of Ferrania's final coating run.

Ferrania developed a policy way back in the 1930s that they would produce intermediate components in bulk and in a way that keeps them stable for very long periods of time - and only use them "on demand" to create finished chemistry for production. Some of the science was a bit over my head, but Marco claims that this practice was unique to Ferrania among major manufacturers, and it's this very practice that allows us to use many components that are 20, 30, even 50 years old. In fact, without this long-standing practice, and our inheritance of tons of these intermediate products, it's possible this project would never have moved forward.

The reason we have decided to synthesize a few new components is because of the gap in time between Ferrania's last production run and our taking over the LRF. During that time, as you might assume, many of these intermediate products were not properly stored. And of course there was a time even after we moved everything to the LRF when we had no climate control. If there had not been this "break" in the storage conditions, we would still be able to use everything... In the case of some components, all we had to do was put them in a desiccant "oven" for a short time to return them to usability. Other components, however, slipped below the purity standards we require and although we could use them, it is better to keep them as reference materials only and synthesize new stuff.

I found this conversation entirely fascinating and it was actually the longest I've spoken to Marco in some time. He was quite passionate and animated when discussing this topic.

So thank you Nzoomed!

Thanks for your reply Dave!
Yes I too find this very interesting, it certainly demonstrates that there was some very advanced chemistry going into Ferrania products.
I guess from a practical standpoint, this is an advantage, as it means that the team only have to do a production run of chemistry every few years, that lasts them a long time.
Its also very interesting to learn how very little of some chemicals were required (the sensitizers for example) to make a batch of film, so from an economic sense, it certainly would be cheaper to produce big lots at a time if the chemistry can be made to store well for a length of time.

I guess this also possibly means that expired Ferrania films possibly have good shelf life, going by the old rolls of solaris that people are shooting, it certainly looks that way

I really hope that someday I will be able to go to Italy and meet Marco and the team at Ferrania and see around the LRF

Thanks Dave!

Personally i don't care if they choose to use the "old stock" if they think it is OK. They know what they are doing. And it's much better if they use these chemicals instead of having them stored around.

As for the synthesis lab, it seems really interesting, let's hope they have success in creating whatever chemicals they need!

+1
Completely agree!

Also remember that when production ramps up to full scale, the team have "walter" from the old ferrania plant to produce all the chemistry required

 

[Black Dog]

Hehe...loved the 'Walter' reference...

 

[Nzoomed]

Thanks for the latest Update!

 

[FILM Ferrania]

Latest update: Dead Link Removed

 

[Cholentpot]

Latest update: Dead Link Removed

Cool, nice to see old machine being used.

Are you still on track to sell bulk C-41? bulk e-6?

 

[FILM Ferrania]

Cool, nice to see old machine being used.

Are you still on track to sell bulk C-41? bulk e-6?

Bulk materials are of course easier to make, but they will come only when we are able to produce in bulk. Each miniJumbo that comes off the line will need to be maximized for sales so that we can grow our operation to a point where we can produce in bulk. Unless reality changes suddenly, this means finished rolls of 35mm and 120 primarily, and our two cinema formats in lesser volume. And we're likely to be "stuck" on these products for most of our first year. We would like to make at least one batch of 4x5 next year, and at least enough 35mm cinema to shoot a feature - but these will only happen if we can do it without affecting sales of the four core formats.

We are starting with E-6 of course, but C-41 should be relatively close behind. Again, because of our low capacity, we will have to watch our numbers closely... For at least our first 12-18 months, the #1 cost in our factory will be opportunity cost.

 

[GarageBoy]

Any plans to collaborate with labs? E6 labs are dropping like flies

 

[flavio81]

Latest update: Dead Link Removed

"We have successfully looped through these stages a couple of times now, and this week, the coater room went dark so that we could perform our first tests with actual silver-based emulsion. The looping continues next week."

Yay!! Complimenti amici!!

Best news of the week!!

 

[flavio81]

Bulk materials are of course easier to make, but they will come only when we are able to produce in bulk. Each miniJumbo that comes off the line will need to be maximized for sales so that we can grow our operation to a point where we can produce in bulk. Unless reality changes suddenly, this means finished rolls of 35mm and 120 primarily, and our two cinema formats in lesser volume. And we're likely to be "stuck" on these products for most of our first year. We would like to make at least one batch of 4x5 next year, and at least enough 35mm cinema to shoot a feature - but these will only happen if we can do it without affecting sales of the four core formats.

We are starting with E-6 of course, but C-41 should be relatively close behind. Again, because of our low capacity, we will have to watch our numbers closely... For at least our first 12-18 months, the #1 cost in our factory will be opportunity cost.

Hi Dave, all sounds logical but also consider that lately it seems that labs are thinking e6 is going to dissappear.**.. And consider also that the key to FF's success is operating at the right scale. And right now, labs that want to do E6 are stuck (i guess) between kits that are too small, and bulk chemistry too big for current demand. So selling the chemicals as a kit of the right scale for the labs could help keep e6 alive, and you guys need to have labs to still be e6-ready for when you introduce ferrania's first film (CorradoChrome 100)...

** GarageBoy's comment above is very important. The same is happening in my country, the only lab that does E6 is going to stop offering this service because their batch of chemicals is running out (and I presume that they don't want to order more)

 

[Nzoomed]

Hi Dave, all sounds logical but also consider that lately it seems that labs are thinking e6 is going to dissappear.**.. And consider also that the key to FF's success is operating at the right scale. And right now, labs that want to do E6 are stuck (i guess) between kits that are too small, and bulk chemistry too big for current demand. So selling the chemicals as a kit of the right scale for the labs could help keep e6 alive, and you guys need to have labs to still be e6-ready for when you introduce ferrania's first film (CorradoChrome 100)...

** GarageBoy's comment above is very important. The same is happening in my country, the only lab that does E6 is going to stop offering this service because their batch of chemicals is running out (and I presume that they don't want to order more)

I think it is a priority for Ferrania to produce the E6 processing chemistry, and im sure they know that, but first they have to get the film production underway, they have so many things on right now, and its not really the top priority currently.

But once they get their chemistry lab up and running with walter, they will be able to make any chemical they need.

 

[twelvetone12]

Couldn't they just team up with someone like Bellini Foto (who makes already e6 chem and is not too expensive) for that?

 

[fdonadio]

The same is happening in my country, the only lab that does E6 is going to stop offering this service because their batch of chemicals is running out (and I presume that they don't want to order more)

In São Paulo, Brazil, there's one lab that I know is processing E6, called Capovilla. There was another one, LabTec, but I called them last week and they said they have no more chemistry.

It's been reported that Fujihunt doesn't want to sell their PRO6 chemistry here anymore. I mean, they don't want to import it to Brazil anymore.

Confusingly, Fuji is still selling Provia here.


Cheers,
Flavio

 

[Cholentpot]

Bulk materials are of course easier to make, but they will come only when we are able to produce in bulk. Each miniJumbo that comes off the line will need to be maximized for sales so that we can grow our operation to a point where we can produce in bulk. Unless reality changes suddenly, this means finished rolls of 35mm and 120 primarily, and our two cinema formats in lesser volume. And we're likely to be "stuck" on these products for most of our first year. We would like to make at least one batch of 4x5 next year, and at least enough 35mm cinema to shoot a feature - but these will only happen if we can do it without affecting sales of the four core formats.

We are starting with E-6 of course, but C-41 should be relatively close behind. Again, because of our low capacity, we will have to watch our numbers closely... For at least our first 12-18 months, the #1 cost in our factory will be opportunity cost.

So to clarify.

Will 100 foot rolls be up for sale or not initially?

 

[Diapositivo]

Couldn't they just team up with someone like Bellini Foto (who makes already e6 chem and is not too expensive) for that?

They could also talk to Fotochimica Ornano. They were producing E6 chemistry until a few years ago. I suppose they would be able to re-start production quite easily. Maybe Ferrania could subcontract to Ornano the production of chemistry and care about the packaging, distribution, and profits

 

[FILM Ferrania]

Hello all,

We very much hear and understand your concern about E-6 labs. We have had a form on our website for over a year now that is slowly collecting info on labs around the world.

Feel free to fill it out if you think we missed someone!! Dead Link Removed (note - not all labs in our list process E-6, and we haven't updated the map in several months, but we will soon...)

We will do as much as we can to support the remaining E-6 labs, but of course the volume of film we will produce, scattered around the globe, will hardly convince them to redouble their efforts to keep E-6 alive... Those that do, we will promote vigorously in our communications, on our site, etc. We will also encourage home processing, kits, Jobo co-ops, non-profit workshops - whatever it takes to ensure people that there are options available to use our color reversal film.

 

[FILM Ferrania]

So to clarify.

Will 100 foot rolls be up for sale or not initially?

Not initially. We are starting with our four core formats only - 135/36, 120, S8/15m, and 16mm/30m.

I can say that bulk rolls and 4x5 are at the top of our list for limited runs as soon as they are feasible (which means not interfering with availability of the core products), but it's quite impossible to put this on any kind of timeline...

 

[Cholentpot]

Not initially. We are starting with our four core formats only - 135/36, 120, S8/15m, and 16mm/30m.

I can say that bulk rolls and 4x5 are at the top of our list for limited runs as soon as they are feasible (which means not interfering with availability of the core products), but it's quite impossible to put this on any kind of timeline...

Thanks.

The 120 is a nice consolation prize...

 

[GarageBoy]

Even with the list, there's a few labs that have closed since
I submitted the suggestion for LTI Lightside, a pro lab in NYC - they have since cut their E6 line

 

[locutus]

Fotoyks in Helsinki are also closing their E6 lab at the end of the year.

In all honesty with the prices that was certain, 12.9E for a roll of Provia and then 6.9E for development, at 55 cents per shot that just becomes a bit unreal for 35mm

 

[Paul Howell]

Seems that in most parts of the world without a local lab there will be 2 options, send your E6 out for processing, or develop and mount at home. There are at least 3 kits from 3 different manufacturers available here in the US, dont know what it will cost to import if you live out side the US or EU. Developing 35mm or 120 ought not be much of an issue, developing long rolls of 16 or 35mm movie stock, more of a challenge. Not sure what the price will be a roll of Ferrania 35mm 36 will be, but based on Fuji, no matter if you send out or develop at home, E6 will be expensive compared to C41.