Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

flavio81 · Nov 15, 2016

Here in my lab (the one that has announced that will discontinue E6 soon), E6 development was affordable.
E6 films used to be priced above C41 but not ridiculously overpriced, which is what Fuji is doing now. In the early 2000s, i was able to buy TURA slide film (made in germany, rebadged Agfa) at a price similar to a mid-priced C41 roll and life was good. Even Fuji Sensia II was very affordable and gave fantastic results.

But look at the posts above, they come from first world countries and important cities (New York City, USA; Helsinki, Finland), they don't come from a remote isolated place on the map; yet the labs there are discontinuing E6 processing. This is a SERIOUS problem.

I think Flavio Donadio also mentioned difficulty in finding E6 development in Sao Paulo? Sao Paulo is one of the biggest cities of the whole planet (the SECOND most populated city in the world with 36 million people in the metropolitan area!!)... things are not looking good!

Ferrania is aiming for making affordable E6 slide film for you and him and her and me. I think that it would be GREAT if they also find a way to make (or distribute) affordable E6 chemistry for the masses.

And also to reach on to the labs. Labs can be profoundly ignorant of the reality out there. Two years ago, Dave, i visited two of the most important photo labs here and this is what they believed:

- "Kodak does not manufacture black and white film anymore"
- "Fuji is discontinuing all film"

The other lab said:

- "Nobody is making reversal chemistry anymore"

The owners of such labs are not surfing the internet and they are oblivious to what is going on here in APUG. When the ferrania kickstarter had success, immediately afterwards I told one of the owners (of the most reputed pro lab in my city) that Ferrania was going to make slide film again, but they didn't believe it. They are from other generation, distanced from the things going on here on the internet. Ah, and he thought that Ferrania stopped producing film in the 70s.

I believe that if they would receive a printed (physical) card or leaflet from Ferrania inviting them to import film and chemistry, they would believe it.

fdonadio · Nov 15, 2016

Paul Howell said:
There are at least 3 kits from 3 different manufacturers available here in the US, dont know what it will cost to import if you live out side the US or EU.

One problem is getting to ship these chemistry. For C-41, there are powder kits, which can be shipped by air; for E-6, there are only liquid kits, which can't.

There are no resellers or distributors for Tetenal products here and, it seems, no one will ship their E-6 kit to Brazil. Gotta get it as freight by boat, but then its better to get Fujihunt's PRO6 kit.

That's a pretty crazy catch-22.

Cheers,
Flavio

fdonadio · Nov 15, 2016

flavio81 said:
I think Flavio Donadio also mentioned difficulty in finding E6 development in Sao Paulo? Sao Paulo is one of the biggest cities of the whole planet (the SECOND most populated city in the world with 36 million people in the metropolitan area!!)... things are not looking good!

Flavio, you're right on. Only one lab confirmed (by me) to be processing E-6 in São Paulo: Capovilla. Curiously, it's not listed on Ferrania's website. I'll be adding it soon.

Good news is that there's another lab listed on Ferrania's site. I'll be calling them tomorrow to check if they do develop E-6.

Still, I have to drive over 40 miles to get to any one of them.

Cheers,
Flavio

Michael Guzzi · Nov 15, 2016

flavio81 said:
[...]
I think Flavio Donadio also mentioned difficulty in finding E6 development in Sao Paulo? Sao Paulo is one of the biggest cities of the whole planet (the SECOND most populated city in the world with 36 million people in the metropolitan area!!)... things are not looking good!
[...]

The problem here is that those 36 million either never saw a film camera, or think the same as your lab owner friends, they think the stuff is long dead . Most people are very very surprised to know Kodak is still kicking (those that know it existed at all that is), and that Fuji still makes anything film related. Other brands were never really known to the general public.

IMO, unless quite some marketing gets going on, and the few universities that carry photography courses introduce the young generations to film, there won't ever be an analog comeback around these parts. Quite a few folks who are my age find what I do cool. Messing with this old funky gear,trays of crazy chemicals, etc. It's like alchemy to them.

But they also find it a pain in the rear end, because you have to really get out of your way to get the supplies. Because nobody imports it. Because most shop owners think analog is dead. So nobody can buy supplies easily, and almost nobody practices analog. So the word that analog is not dead doesn't get out there.
And the circle goes around....

ckuwajima · Nov 15, 2016

fdonadio said:
Flavio, you're right on. Only one lab confirmed (by me) to be processing E-6 in São Paulo: Capovilla. Curiously, it's not listed on Ferrania's website. I'll be adding it soon.

Good news is that there's another lab listed on Ferrania's site. I'll be calling them tomorrow to check if they do develop E-6.

Still, I have to drive over 40 miles to get to any one of them.

Cheers,
Flavio

Flávio, Estudio Guarnieri develops E-6. I just confirmed this as I picked up a couple of B&W films he developed for me.

Regards,
Celso

fdonadio · Nov 15, 2016

Michael Guzzi said:
IMO, unless quite some marketing gets going on, and the few universities that carry photography courses introduce the young generations to film, there won't ever be an analog comeback around these parts.

Totally agreed!

There's this young (mid-20's) friend of mine that got a university degree on Photography a couple of years ago. I asked him about his lab classes and he told me they went into the lab only a couple of times during the course, to see how it was done "in the past". Pretty much the entire course was taught on digital.

So, yes, the younger generations have to be introduced to film, especially the ones that want to pursue a career on photography. The Lomography fad seems to be completely gone, judging by the price they are (not) selling on the auction sites...

Cheers,
Flavio

fdonadio · Nov 15, 2016

ckuwajima said:
Flávio, Estudio Guarnieri develops E-6. I just confirmed this as I picked up a couple of B&W films he developed for me.

Thanks, that's really good to know. I've never heard of this place, but I am looking it up on Google right now.

Cheers,
Flavio

flavio81 · Nov 15, 2016

Michael Guzzi said:
The problem here is that those 36 million either never saw a film camera, or think the same as your lab owner friends, they think the stuff is long dead . Most people are very very surprised to know Kodak is still kicking (those that know it existed at all that is), and that Fuji still makes anything film related. Other brands were never really known to the general public.

IMO, unless quite some marketing gets going on, and the few universities that carry photography courses introduce the young generations to film, there won't ever be an analog comeback around these parts. Quite a few folks who are my age find what I do cool. Messing with this old funky gear,trays of crazy chemicals, etc. It's like alchemy to them.

But they also find it a pain in the rear end, because you have to really get out of your way to get the supplies. Because nobody imports it. Because most shop owners think analog is dead. So nobody can buy supplies easily, and almost nobody practices analog. So the word that analog is not dead doesn't get out there.
And the circle goes around....

+1

Ferrania will need to tackle this issue to assure the success of the continued production of E6 film.

FILM Ferrania · Nov 15, 2016

flavio81 said:
The owners of such labs are not surfing the internet and they are oblivious to what is going on here in APUG. When the ferrania kickstarter had success, immediately afterwards I told one of the owners (of the most reputed pro lab in my city) that Ferrania was going to make slide film again, but they didn't believe it. They are from other generation, distanced from the things going on here on the internet. Ah, and he thought that Ferrania stopped producing film in the 70s.

I believe that if they would receive a printed (physical) card or leaflet from Ferrania inviting them to import film and chemistry, they would believe it.

You are very correct that we have a huge marketing task in front of us. In fact, as you point out, many labs around the world have become part of the problem instead of part of the solution. They are uninformed, and understandably pessimistic or cynical because they have witnessed first-hand, customer by customer, the fall of film from its former height.

Once we have a product in-hand, one of our first tasks (after delivering to our Kickstarter backers and beginning sales) is to reach out to labs directly. Our plea will be to either keep their E-6 equipment online - or to reach out to a regional lab and make a partnership to offer E-6 processing. Those who reply to us in a positive way will be promoted in all of our communications with customers. And we will depend on our global community to help us find labs who want to move forward in a meaningful way.

While we hope to do most of this outreach by email, we will do whatever it takes to make sure labs are aware of our efforts - even if I need to spend days on the phone or make up a printed piece that we send by traditional mail.

At the same time, there are some labs that have embraced the internet and have used it to reverse the downward slide of their businesses. Here in the US, we have at least a dozen labs who have embraced the modern day and are gradually consolidating customers, and I have found others scattered around the globe doing something similar. Some of these labs send out E-6 to a regional bulk-processor - but the end result is the same for customers.

As you say, Flavio - labs are a serious problem. And while we cannot dictate the form that other businesses take, we can do as much as possible to be a positive and encouraging force and use our own success as an example of what can be done with scarce resources.

As soon as we make some film...

Paul Howell · Nov 15, 2016

A few of us remember the 50's and 60's when color labs were uncommon, it was a standard practice to buy film like Kodachrome with processing including, with each roll came with a mailer. If Ferraina can partner with a few labs around the world and include the cost of processing and mounting it will take the hassle factor of finding a lab. Here in Phoenix there is still one lab that processes E6, but they only process one or two days a week, may be down to just one day, and I need to make 2 trips, one to drop the film off and another to pick it up. If I could just drop it the mail, more attractive.

Nzoomed · Nov 15, 2016

Paul Howell said:
A few of us remember the 50's and 60's when color labs were uncommon, it was a standard practice to buy film like Kodachrome with processing including, with each roll came with a mailer. If Ferraina can partner with a few labs around the world and include the cost of processing and mounting it will take the hassle factor of finding a lab. Here in Phoenix there is still one lab that processes E6, but they only process one or two days a week, may be down to just one day, and I need to make 2 trips, one to drop the film off and another to pick it up. If I could just drop it the mail, more attractive.

As far as super8 goes, i think thats a great idea, and i believe they are possibly doing this for their motion picture films with a lab that Maco owns.

I for one would be more than happy to ship my S8 films to Italy for processing, since I have to send mine overseas anyway for processing, so some sort of processing included system for super8 would be great for s8 films etc.

Perhaps they can partner with some labs round the world and offer a similar prepaid service for E6 films?

IDK, but im sure we will find a solution.

Poisson Du Jour · Nov 15, 2016

FILM Ferrania said:
You are very correct that we have a huge marketing task in front of us. In fact, as you point out, many labs around the world have become part of the problem instead of part of the solution. They are uninformed, and understandably pessimistic or cynical because they have witnessed first-hand, customer by customer, the fall of film from its former height.

Once we have a product in-hand, one of our first tasks (after delivering to our Kickstarter backers and beginning sales) is to reach out to labs directly. Our plea will be to either keep their E-6 equipment online - or to reach out to a regional lab and make a partnership to offer E-6 processing. Those who reply to us in a positive way will be promoted in all of our communications with customers. And we will depend on our global community to help us find labs who want to move forward in a meaningful way.

While we hope to do most of this outreach by email, we will do whatever it takes to make sure labs are aware of our efforts - even if I need to spend days on the phone or make up a printed piece that we send by traditional mail.

At the same time, there are some labs that have embraced the internet and have used it to reverse the downward slide of their businesses. Here in the US, we have at least a dozen labs who have embraced the modern day and are gradually consolidating customers, and I have found others scattered around the globe doing something similar. Some of these labs send out E-6 to a regional bulk-processor - but the end result is the same for customers.

As you say, Flavio - labs are a serious problem. And while we cannot dictate the form that other businesses take, we can do as much as possible to be a positive and encouraging force and use our own success as an example of what can be done with scarce resources.

You bet labs are a serious problem -- a muted understatement of sorts. It remains puzzling to me, at the coal face of working with labs reducing or tossing out E6 processing, why Ferrania would venture down the path of producing film whlie facing the reality that E6 has likely less than 4 to 5 years. There are real and extant disincentives to using E6 that are not addressed in the enthusiasm to release a film to a wary public. That photographers have to scout about for a lab, travel or send their film away, adding extra cost is one of them. I expect that before April next year another lab will cease offering E6 processing locally; this is repeated around the world given the falling demand -- it certainly is not a burgeoning demand! Sadly, it is not enough to be dedicated to E6 as a professional: apart from specialisation, it requires organisation, especially of any lab that wants to only process on e.g. 1 or 3 days per week; I expect a faster turnaround than that, and many other photographers do to, or they will simply move to digital. My E6 jobbing is a 160km round trip by car or train; if it's posted, that adds $15 to the cost. The real cost per roll of MF film is $53; a decade ago is was $14. Seeking out a partnership with a regional lab is fine for Europe, but what about the rest of the world?

StoneNYC · Nov 15, 2016

FILM Ferrania said:
Not initially. We are starting with our four core formats only - 135/36, 120, S8/15m, and 16mm/30m.

I can say that bulk rolls and 4x5 are at the top of our list for limited runs as soon as they are feasible (which means not interfering with availability of the core products), but it's quite impossible to put this on any kind of timeline...

I know you did a survey of sizes.

Can you tell the difference between 4x5 and 8x10 usage from your survey?

I was hoping 8x10 would also be available. I only use Velvia50 8x10 currently but would love to use your new film in sheets but rarely use 4x5 these days. I know this is contrary to many peoooe but I was wondering if 8x10 is even going to happen at all?

Thanks.

cmacd123 · Nov 16, 2016

Paul Howell said:
A few of us remember the 50's and 60's when color labs were uncommon, it was a standard practice to buy film like Kodachrome with processing including, with each roll came with a mailer. If Ferraina can partner with a few labs around the world and include the cost of processing and mounting it will take the hassle factor of finding a lab. .

Here in Canada as in Most places Kodachrome was always sold with processing included (the one exception was the US where Kodak was not allowed to offer included processing as an anti-trust issue.)

When Fuji chrome came to the Canadian market, they did make arrangements with several labs. each roll came with a mailer, with a post box number, and the lab would return part of the mailer envelope to Fuji Canada to receive payment for the processing service. This meant that every participating lab could offer the processing prepaid for films submitted at the Camera store. The Labs also were able to supply the film with processing to their smaller retil customers, with the expectation that they would receive the processing business. Often the slides would come back in nice green and red cardboard mounts marked "Fujichrome" which I am sure that Fuji's Marketing department also had a hand in bulk buying. The directly competitive Ektachrome and Anscochrome were generally sold without Processing. Agfa Chrome was sold with processing as it did not use a common process. Anscochrome was popular enough in those days that many labs found it worthwhile to run an anscochrome line.

railwayman3 · Nov 16, 2016

Paul Howell said:
A few of us remember the 50's and 60's when color labs were uncommon, it was a standard practice to buy film like Kodachrome with processing including, with each roll came with a mailer. If Ferraina can partner with a few labs around the world and include the cost of processing and mounting it will take the hassle factor of finding a lab. Here in Phoenix there is still one lab that processes E6, but they only process one or two days a week, may be down to just one day, and I need to make 2 trips, one to drop the film off and another to pick it up. If I could just drop it the mail, more attractive.

For many years in the 1960's here in the UK, a 36 exp Kodachrome, including process and mounting by Kodak, cost around £1.50 ( = $1.87 ). This equates now to a about £27 ( = $34). The only extra cost was a 4.5pence ("old money") stamp to mail to Box 14, Hemel Hempstead (less than 2p, just over 2 cents)....postage on the same film now would be £2.85 ( = $3.60) !

Not sure what that proves....other than that buying a current E6 film, plus lab processing and postage both ways, would probably work out about the same., say £25-ish.

Prest_400 · Nov 16, 2016

railwayman3 said:
Not sure what that proves....other than that buying a current E6 film, plus lab processing and postage both ways, would probably work out about the same., say £25-ish.

Recall seeing that inflation corrected prices of film about 30+ years ago accounts to be equivalent to the current level of prices. I checked prices of 2010 and wow, they have increased quite a bit. However the prices of the 2000's could very well be below (Inflation wise) due to the Kodak-Fuji competition in the 90s and so.
Interesting to see old catalogues and even Ektachrome 100G in 220 for about 5GBP a roll. Interesting. Was there but not aware back then.

Nzoomed · Nov 16, 2016

If it could work, IDK, it could prove difficult, depending on volume, but perhaps some agreement could be made with Labs who want to offer prepaid processing for Ferrania films, Ferrania could supply the chemistry for processing and the labs claim back the cost for every ferrania film processed?

Either way, it would have to be a simple and hassle free system, but for one it could guarantee a good supply of 6 step chemistry for those labs who wish to participate.

If Ferrania becomes the last E6 manufacturer of film, this would even be a more attractive option for labs to consider.

Ferrania can always sell film without processing included for those who process themselves also

Poisson Du Jour · Nov 16, 2016

Nzoomed said:
If Ferrania becomes the last E6 manufacturer of film, this would even be a more attractive option for labs to consider.

Really? Labs most often have a business case for discontinuing E6 processing, and this is a repeat observation borne out of experience. If the demand is not there now for E6, where is the business case that supports the demand being there (or seemingly coming back with a fervent vengeans) because of Ferrania film? The theory doesn't stack up at all.

Use E6 now, whatever is available and avoid chasing windmills. Once it's gone, it's gone. If you don't think that is true, ask any of the New Zealand labs that have discontinued E6 just why they chose that course of action.

1L6E6VHF · Nov 16, 2016

railwayman3 said:
For many years in the 1960's here in the UK, a 36 exp Kodachrome, including process and mounting by Kodak, cost around £1.50 ( = $1.87 ).

In most of the 1960s, £1.50 equaled $4.20 USD. The 1967 devaluation would have made it $3.60 USD.(for about four years, the rate was £1.00=$2.40 USD, which was a very convenient rate for people who do math in their heads - it meant 1d=1 cent US).

1971 would bring both the end of shillings and pence and the collapse of Breton Woods, ending the connection between the pound and the dollar.

mshchem · Nov 17, 2016

When Fujichrome goes so goes all E6. I love chromes but I can't believe it has lasted this long . I hope Ferrania makes it but if there isn't the infrastructure to support reversal film in place it's not going to work .
My closest lab is in my basement , otherwise I would have to send it 300 miles to nearest lab.
Best Mike

railwayman3 · Nov 17, 2016

Nzoomed said:
If it could work, IDK, it could prove difficult, depending on volume, but perhaps some agreement could be made with Labs who want to offer prepaid processing for Ferrania films, Ferrania could supply the chemistry for processing and the labs claim back the cost for every ferrania film processed?

Either way, it would have to be a simple and hassle free system, but for one it could guarantee a good supply of 6 step chemistry for those labs who wish to participate.

If Ferrania becomes the last E6 manufacturer of film, this would even be a more attractive option for labs to consider.

Ferrania can always sell film without processing included for those who process themselves also

Reminds me of the last few years of prepaid Kodachrome in Europe, when the sole mailing address for everyone was in Lausanne, Switzerland. The films were consolidated there, couriered to-and-from Dwaynes in Kansas and the boxes of slides mailed back to users from Switzerland. This seemed to work very well, at least from here in the UK.....I recall anything from one to two weeks in total was average.
Though I wonder how economic the arrangement was for Kodak themselves, given that the prepaid films were still relatively inexpensive up to the end, maybe the cost was accepted as an exercise to try to wind down the discontinuation of the product without loosing too much goodwill !

Nzoomed · Nov 17, 2016

Poisson Du Jour said:
Really? Labs most often have a business case for discontinuing E6 processing, and this is a repeat observation borne out of experience. If the demand is not there now for E6, where is the business case that supports the demand being there (or seemingly coming back with a fervent vengeans) because of Ferrania film? The theory doesn't stack up at all.

Use E6 now, whatever is available and avoid chasing windmills. Once it's gone, it's gone. If you don't think that is true, ask any of the New Zealand labs that have discontinued E6 just why they chose that course of action.

Firstly, im using E6 right now, and have never shot much film until recently.

Surley there are others like me who are starting to take up film?

Lomography doesnt help, because they process their E6 in C41 most of the time, but at least it helps film sales, but not the labs.

What im trying to get at is that if the labs can be guranteed to have customers send their film (because Ferrania have a prepaid agreement with the labs) then this will be an incentive to keep them running because they know they will have a flow of customers, even if runs are done once a month, I think i would not complain

As for E6 processing in New Zealand, well the lab that shutdown in Christchurch has now sold their machine to a lab in Wellington that has never processed E6 previously and now they have started E6 up!
And yes you will find that lab on the ferrania list of labs

We have at least 3 other remaining labs that I can see, I think Auckland has up to 2 labs and Palmerston North also has an E6 lab.

mnemosyne · Nov 17, 2016

For Ferrania it would make sense to start a cooperation with a handful of bigger mail-in labs around the world and include some kind of processing discount coupon with their film, that would help to channel the film towards these bigger labs and make sure they do not drop E6. For example, in Europe there is Eurocolor/Fuji Gera which still offer a top quality E6 mail-in processing service for very modest prices (2-3 EUR/roll). I personally would rather see the whole EU wide E6 processing business consolidated at Gera than having it scattered all over the EU in smaller labs that struggle to deliver E6 in quality at an acceptable price, which I fear would further drive away people from E6 and actually harm the E6 infrastructure and accelerate its demise rather than prevent it. For E6, centralised mail-in processing was the norm here in Germany for amateurs over decades and I think it is the only option to keep it alive in the future.

twelvetone12 · Nov 17, 2016

Also, you should remember that Ferrania said e6 will be their first product, not the only product.

Poisson Du Jour · Nov 17, 2016

Nzoomed said:
Firstly, im using E6 right now, and have never shot much film until recently.

Shoot 70+ rolls a week, contiinuously. E6 machinery requires a high throughput just to be kept clean and healthy; one lab I know of revealed that E6 throughput went from 22 rolls processed over a 5.5 day period in February this year to now just 8 rolls (!) This is Big City stuff, not small high street minilab.

Nzoomed said:
Surley there are others like me who are starting to take up film?

Yes that's true, but these folks are commonly using C41; E6 is poorly understood by many people, especially students who are going into film. The thing they are told about, what they learn, is that "slides are for projectors". Not necessarily so! But it's an instant turn-off because they say, "well stuff it, I don't have a projector" and others still chirp in saying "nobody makes or sells projectors anymore" (they may not be made, but you certainly can buy them second hand!).

Nzoomed said:
Lomography doesnt help, because they process their E6 in C41 most of the time, but at least it helps film sales, but not the labs.

I'm using Rollei Crossbird in a pinhole camera at the moment. The first roll will be done as E6, the second cross-dressed in C41. Just for craic!

Nzoomed said:
What im trying to get at is that if the labs can be guranteed to have customers send their film (because Ferrania have a prepaid agreement with the labs) then this will be an incentive to keep them running because they know they will have a flow of customers, even if runs are done once a month, I think i would not complain

And the business case for E6 is...?? A run of once a month?? But this mailing it out stuff doesn't cut it in a global sense, and certainly wouldn't help the lab in Welly; it's a pretty sure bet that photographers around the world who still use film are completely over mailing rolls out for processing --- digital is way, way too tempting and easy to latch onto with none of this baggage from another era. There wasn't all that much going to Dwaynes in the final years of Kodachrome, save for a blinded panic period.

I was a frequent drop--in at the lab in Papanui 10 years ago when NZ was a commuting trip from Australia each week.

I've seen a post here from Stephen Frizza who looks to have set up another lab in Sydney. Good-o!

Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania (PART 2)

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