How big can one print MF?

GregY

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Drew, that last line is a worthy T-shirt slogan:
" Taste is way more important than overthinking or overspending just to play a tune only worthy of a kazoo."

 

Sirius Glass

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This is why LA county banned them along the highway.

Unfortunately Los Angeles City has not seen fit to go along and allows the urban blight to still exist.
 

GregY

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That would put him in the hands of one of the very few remaining labs that still optically print from negs. In which case, he might as well ask them for the full-sized print to begin with.

Good observation K.
 

Lachlan Young

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In which case, he might as well ask them for the full-sized print to begin with.

Until they find out how much a darkroom print that size actually has to cost. At that point it often turns out that a high res neg scan (and an inkjet print) is more than sufficient for many of them - we perhaps forget at this distance that some of the names whose work is intimately associated with very large darkroom prints had the sort of turnover and studio overheads where some large scale darkroom prints might be a helpful business expense in the short term, not just fine/ collectible art in the longer term. Of course, the third option is to teach people how to do big prints themselves within facilities they can hire - which also tends to rather quickly demonstrate why professionally made prints cost what they do.

I think some of the confusion came upthread when people deviated off into resolution requirements for billboards and the like - the repro off a 16x20" would be for those who want a digital file, sufficient for many (arguably all) purposes for which digital files are needed today - but allowing for the characteristics (or client aesthetic preference) of a darkroom print from a neg, rather than a high res neg scan worked on to look like it could be a darkroom print.
 

Pieter12

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Unfortunately Los Angeles City has not seen fit to go along and allows the urban blight to still exist.

The sad truth is that the 2002 (or so) city-wide ban on digital outdoor advertising was overturned in 2014, but there are still some limitations in place such as "sign zones" where they are allowed. It is all about greed.
 

koraks

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Until they find out how much a darkroom print that size actually has to cost.

As I understand, the large print in this case is intended for sale. I imagine that in such a scenario, it should be possible to recoup the cost of producing the print and realize a healthy margin at the same time. I'd hope that the sales price would not be a 'cost plus' calculation in the first place, but it would be regarded in relation to the creative and aesthetic merits of the work - not based on the paper and hours spent on reproducing it. If it's more of a cost-based thing with a marginal profit, personally I'd walk away from the sale. YMMV and all that, of course.
 

DREW WILEY

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The odds of even breaking even on a decent large framed print are low, unless you're either particularly well known, or can dramatically reduce your overhead by doing your own printing and having your own printing facility. If a gallery is involved, there goes 50 to 75% right off the top. Plenty of photographers seem to be willing to lose money just to get seen. And the cost of materials has skyrocketed in recent years.
 

Marco B

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This image was shot on Kodak Gold 200 in 35mm format using a tripod, and I had it enlarged to 50x75 cm more than 20 years ago, and framed behind UV protecting museum glass.

As you can see from the second detail image, the grain is hardly noticable even at this size, still amazes me. Printed on analog photo paper.
 

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DREW WILEY

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That really doesn't tell much, Marco, except that Kodak Gold is relatively fine grained and that it was slightly out of focus when enlarged; otherwise the grain would be EASILY detectable, even if it had been printed from a medium format neg instead. Besides, grain and resolution are not the same thing. And being a soft contrast film, Gold has less noticeable edge effect, including grain-wise. But all that doesn't mean that evident grain is necessarily a bad thing. It all depends.
 

Pieter12

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Generally, art is priced with size as a factor. That may have started with Picasso. As a matter of fact, there is one website that uses a formula based on size and previous sales to help an artist price their work.
 

Marco B

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No, they are not "out of focus", the fence's ironwork is razer sharp where it should be. I think the lab technicians did a great job at these enlargements (I have a second complementary photo for this one). Both clearly show the film grain, or better said dye clouds, of the film, see the detail image. Its just so surprisingly fine, that even on close inspection, it is hardly noticable and certainly not disturbing for this type of high contrast subject of an architectural detail.
 

DREW WILEY

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Well, yes, I can barely make out dye clouds on the closeup, although the web isn't an ideal mode for adjudicating such things. But Gold 200 isn't the very finest color neg film around, and anything enlarged that much from any kind of 35mm film is NOT sharp, and cannot be. Maybe if you back off far enough, and want to assess it in that manner.

I have a lot of experience enlarging what is their finest detail CN film, Ektar 100; and no matter how sharp you shoot it, the dye cloud structure starts becoming detectable before 10X. I've printed 35mm Gold 200 in the past, so know the comparison too. Gold does what it's engineered to do. And there's nothing wrong with shooting 35mm film. But if one realistically wants to retrieve more detail, it has to be there to begin with, and the only way to do that is to move up to bigger film.
 
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That would put him in the hands of one of the very few remaining labs that still optically print from negs...

Yes, i forgot. My mind still is in that time you could get your pictures developed in a supermarket.
 
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I think most everything has been covered at this point. From a medium format neg the easiest way to get to 3' would be to get a drum scan done by someone that is good at it. If you want max quality then an optical print done by someone, again, that is good at it would be the way to go. Optical prints and scanned/stinkjet prints are going to look different. It just depends on you in the end and what you like/want.

There is a lot of bogus information out there and a lot of opinions from people that are clueless that just regurgitate what they read somewhere. If you've ever seen good prints done then you will know that there really isn't a limit to size. I remember over 25 years ago seeing James Nachtwey's prints that were like 3' from 35mm Tri-X and they were spectacular because they were done by someone who knew what he was doing. You can see one of them being made in War Photographer. After seeing those I knew that people's opinions are like as.....s. I've also seen some pretty horrific big prints. I saw a couple Elliot Erwitt prints a few years ago and they were so bad that they practically nauseated me. Whoever printed those should have quit the darkroom the day before he was hired to make them.

Basically to sum up in case you haven't gotten the message yet, find someone who knows what they are doing and you will be fine.
 
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Out of curiosity, what was bad about them?

I'm not Don but I may have seen some of the same prints (in the local Leica store of all places, where one would think they put emphasis on material aspects of the photography) and i had the same physical reaction. The prints I saw were gray and mushy, grain not sharply resolved. Sort of felt as if my vision was suddenly impaired, which may explain why it affected me in such a way. I can't remember whether I saw digital artifacts.
 

prado333

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Hi, i recomended you have to see some photographers work that you admire. For example if i would like to enlarger to 40x40 inch , i see authors like Antonhy Hernandez, Jeff Brouws, Denis Dailleux Debra Bloomfield and Lynn Davis. All of them have printed in this size and more. It does not import how much i like their work , you have to see it for yourself. Best way is go to exhibition shows or galleries apointments. If you cannnot do it take a look at their books and if not go to web sites.
 

ic-racer

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There are physical limits to one-stage optical enlargements. For example a 100x enlargement of a 6x6cm negative with a f5.6 80mm lens has an effective aperture of about f560. The large Airy disks will hinder resolution.
 

Pieter12

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There are physical limits to one-stage optical enlargements. For example a 100x enlargement of a 6x6cm negative with a f5.6 80mm lens has an effective aperture of about f560. The large Airy disks will hinder resolution.
I would think that a lab capable of making extra-large darkroom prints would have a light source and lenses that could handle the challenge. Plus, the OP is only looking to make a 16x enlargement, so maybe f90.
 

DREW WILEY

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Even a 105 f/5.6 Rodagon G is recommended only up to 40X, and is optimized at 2 stops down, that is, at f/11. But that equates a 6x6 cm neg enlarged six feet across! Actually not difficult to achieve in a home darkroom if you have horizontal enlarger capability. Processing paper that large is the bigger problem.
 

wiltw

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But if one realistically wants to retrieve more detail, it has to be there to begin with, and the only way to do that is to move up to bigger film.

...AND the lens optics has to be able to deliver the detail to the film plane!
  • If you enlarge an image taken with a lens that delivers only 60 ll/mm, the image can only be enlarged 15X before the 5ll/mm for the eye to detect 'sharp print' goes below the threshhold of 'sharp',
  • a lens that starts with 120ll/mm can go to 24X and still meet the threshhold of 'sharp print'
 

DREW WILEY

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People who get so obsessed with lpmm lens resolution that they feel the need to go out and spend thousands of dollars for the some new lens in order to allegedly get ideal detail would be far better served just by moving up to a larger film format.
 

GregY

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People who get so obsessed with lpmm lens resolution that they feel the need to go out and spend thousands of dollars for the some new lens in order to allegedly get ideal detail would be far better served just by moving up to a larger film format.

Agreed. The larger film format is a winner every time
 
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