How critical is Selenium toning to print longevity?

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logan2z

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I've been making gelatin silver prints for a few years but have not made toning a part of my workflow - mostly because I understand that Selenium toner is pretty nasty stuff.

I have no interest in toning for color but I do wonder what I'm giving up in terms of print permanence by not toning. I have read lots about the theoretical benefits to permanence of selenium toning but I wonder how that translates into real world print longevity. I'm not selling my prints at the moment so the lack of permanence would only impact the prints I've made for myself, but I am still curious about this.

I also wonder if there is any sort of permanence guarantee made by galleries when they sell a print (eg. Will last for x years under "normal" conditions). Do they require the artists they represent to follow a specific workflow in order to ensure a certain level of permanence? I wonder how many people buying prints take such things into consideration.
 

jimjm

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I started using selenium toner for fiber prints a few years ago, mostly because it appears to deepen the blacks in certain images. Some papers show little change in color, others may be more affected. With Ilford MG FB Classic at 1:20, there's a very subtle tonal shift to blue/purple, but I have to do a side by side comparison to see it. I usually wear thin nitrile gloves when toning, and just try not to breathe over an open bottle, or the tray of working solution. Your darkroom space should have good ventilation, but it's not like there are clouds of noxious gas coming off of the toner. Just wipe up any spills and it's not too bad otherwise. If you do Lith printing, it can have a big effect on the print color.

For print permanence, I think the most important thing is that the print is properly fixed and washed. This is probably the biggest factor in ensuring prints will not discolor or fade over time. Kodak does recommend toning to increase permanence, especially if exposed to light or temperature extremes. For prints I am matting/framing or that I would sell, I would tone them as standard practice. I don't think most buyers would know the difference if a print was toned or not. I have a vintage Life Magazine press print from 1951 that was handled frequently over the years, and I doubt it was ever toned. The back is covered in writing and rubber stamp markings, but the front image looks fine.
 

markbau

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I've been making gelatin silver prints for a few years but have not made toning a part of my workflow - mostly because I understand that Selenium toner is pretty nasty stuff.
.

I presume you are talking about selenium toner in liquid form, not powder form, if so, what do you mean by "pretty nasty stuff"?
 

Andrew O'Neill

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It's not so nasty in liquid form.. which the majority of us use. I read somewhere that Ansel had his body tissue checked after he passed, and it came out negative. I've been using selenium for years for both colour shift and for longevity. It also makes a great archival toner for kallitypes that I make.
 
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logan2z

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I presume you are talking about selenium toner in liquid form, not powder form, if so, what do you mean by "pretty nasty stuff"?
I am referring to liquid form, although dried spills can apparently produce toxic airborne dust. I used the term 'nasty' based on things I've read about it's toxicity when inhaled or absorbed through the skin. Maybe these things were exaggerated.
 

jvo

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is it toxic? yes!

does it aid in permanance? i'm told it does! i use it for toning, permanance might be an added benefit, i wash prints well, so i don't care.

i also use tongs, mix carefully, wipe up spills, handle carefully. i also do that with all the darkroom chemicals. i also have a mask and nitrile gloves, if i'm concerned.

have fun.
 

wyofilm

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Don't eat it and wear gloves. Be sensible and you will be fine. In areas where soils contain low levels of selenium ranchers supplement their cows with it!
 

mshchem

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Take precautions. The really toxic stuff is handling Selenium powder or dry Selenium compounds. I have used Kodak rapid selenium toner for decades. With neutral papers the color change can be minimal, depends on dilution, the Dmax increase can be quite dramatic. You have to plan for this. On Ilford RC MGIV and Classic fiber use KRST per the old instructions 1 part concentrate to 3 parts water. At this dilution it stinks of ammonia and tones completely in 2 minutes at 70F.

With warmtone papers the toner needs to be more dilute or it will look sepia. With Ilford 1:9, Fomatone 1:19.

If you are only looking for protection dilute it, at least 1:19 and after toning, Kodak hypo clearing agent, followed by a good wash

Look at Kodak's formula for GP-1 Gold protective solution. It's expensive to use but gives very little color shift.

If you are using RC paper follow Ilford's instructions. You don't need hypo clear or extended washing, but with DW fiber paper it's mandatory. Don't forget about dry down too. You can think it's perfect only to tone then dry the print to find it way too dark.
 

RalphLambrecht

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I've been making gelatin silver prints for a few years but have not made toning a part of my workflow - mostly because I understand that Selenium toner is pretty nasty stuff.

I have no interest in toning for color but I do wonder what I'm giving up in terms of print permanence by not toning. I have read lots about the theoretical benefits to permanence of selenium toning but I wonder how that translates into real world print longevity. I'm not selling my prints at the moment so the lack of permanence would only impact the prints I've made for myself, but I am still curious about this.

I also wonder if there is any sort of permanence guarantee made by galleries when they sell a print (eg. Will last for x years under "normal" conditions). Do they require the artists they represent to follow a specific workflow in order to ensure a certain level of permanence? I wonder how many people buying prints take such things into consideration.
First, toning is part of a serious workflow but, direct selenium toning is mostly done for aesthetic and not for permanence reasons.direct sulphide toning is the far better choice for permanence. The galleries I work with don't require a permanence guarantee but customers expect it. I will replace any print for the original buyer, which faded due to my fault.
 
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The contribution to print permanence achieved through selenium toning is directly proportional to how complete the toning is. Most of us tone just enough to get a slight change in image tone. This also means a slight bit of protection added. There are still lots of silver molecules in the print not bound with selenium, and therefore, still "vulnerable."

A print toned to completion is usually too red/brown for most tastes. Some papers will go completely fire-engine red if toned to completion. Such a print would be well-protected, but not very desirable. Other papers exhibit little change in the toner, which means that no toning, and hence, no protection, is happening.

It is worth noting that the entire brouhaha about selenium toning and permanence comes from a study of microfilm, which was toned to completion in selenium. This, indeed, protected the film. Extrapolating these findings to prints resulted in a lot of speculative misinformation about how even a bit of selenium toning would provide "archival protection." More recent research has debunked that to a large extent; the degree of protection is dependent on the degree of toning.

So, go ahead and tone, but do it for aesthetic reasons, not to provide protections for your prints. If you want your prints to last, use two-bath fixing, don't exceed fixer capacity, use a wash aid, and wash your prints well.

A couple notes on selenium toning. Firstly, when used properly, it is not very "nasty" at all. If you buy liquid concentrate, e.g., Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner, and mix your working solution from that, risks of inhaling selenium powder are minimal.

Use print tongs or nitrile gloves to avoid skin contact, but don't freak out if you get some on your hands or even have to dip your hands in the toner working solution to fish out a print stuck to the bottom from time to time. Just wash your hands immediately after contact. Remember that Ansel Adams and his whole generation of photographers manipulated prints in toner with their bare hands; they had a lot of exposure and we don't hear of many cases of selenium-related diseases among those photographers. Yes, we know better now, so minimize contact.

Clean up spills and wash trays and vessels well and you should have no problems. If you're sloppy, you'll see where you've missed cleaning up, since selenium toner dries to red blotches on surfaces, which can be cleaned up later if you catch them soon enough. Selenium will stain trays and sinks; cleaning up can prevent the stains, but the stains themselves after cleaning are non-toxic. Prints toned in selenium are not toxic either.

If you feel you need to limit your exposure to selenium, avoiding Brazil nuts would be your first choice. Not mixing toner concentrate from scratch would be your second (I don't, I just buy the liquid concentrate). Not toning prints in selenium is way down the list.

My issue with the way some use selenium toner is that it is environmentally unsound and wasteful. Selenium toner working solutions can be filter and replenished and reused almost indefinitely. I've written enough about that here and over at the LF forum that a simple search on my name and "selenium" should turn up lots of relevant information should you be interested. Short version: use your toner until toning times get too long, then add a bit of concentrate to bring the activity back to where you like. Filter the toner with coffee filters or lab filter paper before and after each use. An advantage of this method is that the unpleasant ammonia odor disappears almost entirely with a seasoned toning solution.

Best,

Doremus
 

JPD

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I have selenium toned prints since the early 1990's and always for the colour change and until (what I think is) completion. None of the prints have yellowed. Same with RC prints. Sometimes I used Emaks Varycon paper that didn't get any colour changes in selenium, so I started using Agfa Sistan instead, after the final wash. These prints have also kept vell.

Brown/sepia sulphide toning is also nice, but smelly. These prints are "yellowed" to completion in the toner so they simply can't "yellow" anymore.
 

Louis Nargi

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Selenium is a heavy metal so when it is exhausted empty it in a 5 gallon pail and let the water evaporate the metal will stay behind.
 

mshchem

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The contribution to print permanence achieved through selenium toning is directly proportional to how complete the toning is. Most of us tone just enough to get a slight change in image tone. This also means a slight bit of protection added. There are still lots of silver molecules in the print not bound with selenium, and therefore, still "vulnerable."

A print toned to completion is usually too red/brown for most tastes. Some papers will go completely fire-engine red if toned to completion. Such a print would be well-protected, but not very desirable. Other papers exhibit little change in the toner, which means that no toning, and hence, no protection, is happening.

It is worth noting that the entire brouhaha about selenium toning and permanence comes from a study of microfilm, which was toned to completion in selenium. This, indeed, protected the film. Extrapolating these findings to prints resulted in a lot of speculative misinformation about how even a bit of selenium toning would provide "archival protection." More recent research has debunked that to a large extent; the degree of protection is dependent on the degree of toning.

So, go ahead and tone, but do it for aesthetic reasons, not to provide protections for your prints. If you want your prints to last, use two-bath fixing, don't exceed fixer capacity, use a wash aid, and wash your prints well.

A couple notes on selenium toning. Firstly, when used properly, it is not very "nasty" at all. If you buy liquid concentrate, e.g., Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner, and mix your working solution from that, risks of inhaling selenium powder are minimal.

Use print tongs or nitrile gloves to avoid skin contact, but don't freak out if you get some on your hands or even have to dip your hands in the toner working solution to fish out a print stuck to the bottom from time to time. Just wash your hands immediately after contact. Remember that Ansel Adams and his whole generation of photographers manipulated prints in toner with their bare hands; they had a lot of exposure and we don't hear of many cases of selenium-related diseases among those photographers. Yes, we know better now, so minimize contact.

Clean up spills and wash trays and vessels well and you should have no problems. If you're sloppy, you'll see where you've missed cleaning up, since selenium toner dries to red blotches on surfaces, which can be cleaned up later if you catch them soon enough. Selenium will stain trays and sinks; cleaning up can prevent the stains, but the stains themselves after cleaning are non-toxic. Prints toned in selenium are not toxic either.

If you feel you need to limit your exposure to selenium, avoiding Brazil nuts would be your first choice. Not mixing toner concentrate from scratch would be your second (I don't, I just buy the liquid concentrate). Not toning prints in selenium is way down the list.

My issue with the way some use selenium toner is that it is environmentally unsound and wasteful. Selenium toner working solutions can be filter and replenished and reused almost indefinitely. I've written enough about that here and over at the LF forum that a simple search on my name and "selenium" should turn up lots of relevant information should you be interested. Short version: use your toner until toning times get too long, then add a bit of concentrate to bring the activity back to where you like. Filter the toner with coffee filters or lab filter paper before and after each use. An advantage of this method is that the unpleasant ammonia odor disappears almost entirely with a seasoned toning solution.

Best,

Doremus
This is an excellent summary. Very well said. Not so much sulfur gases in the air as in the 20th century. If you live next to a volcano, move, you can eat the Brazil nuts on the way.

I've used a replenished bottle of selenium toner for a couple years.
 
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logan2z

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The contribution to print permanence achieved through selenium toning is directly proportional to how complete the toning is. Most of us tone just enough to get a slight change in image tone. This also means a slight bit of protection added. There are still lots of silver molecules in the print not bound with selenium, and therefore, still "vulnerable."

A print toned to completion is usually too red/brown for most tastes. Some papers will go completely fire-engine red if toned to completion. Such a print would be well-protected, but not very desirable. Other papers exhibit little change in the toner, which means that no toning, and hence, no protection, is happening.

It is worth noting that the entire brouhaha about selenium toning and permanence comes from a study of microfilm, which was toned to completion in selenium. This, indeed, protected the film. Extrapolating these findings to prints resulted in a lot of speculative misinformation about how even a bit of selenium toning would provide "archival protection." More recent research has debunked that to a large extent; the degree of protection is dependent on the degree of toning.

So, go ahead and tone, but do it for aesthetic reasons, not to provide protections for your prints. If you want your prints to last, use two-bath fixing, don't exceed fixer capacity, use a wash aid, and wash your prints well.

A couple notes on selenium toning. Firstly, when used properly, it is not very "nasty" at all. If you buy liquid concentrate, e.g., Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner, and mix your working solution from that, risks of inhaling selenium powder are minimal.

Use print tongs or nitrile gloves to avoid skin contact, but don't freak out if you get some on your hands or even have to dip your hands in the toner working solution to fish out a print stuck to the bottom from time to time. Just wash your hands immediately after contact. Remember that Ansel Adams and his whole generation of photographers manipulated prints in toner with their bare hands; they had a lot of exposure and we don't hear of many cases of selenium-related diseases among those photographers. Yes, we know better now, so minimize contact.

Clean up spills and wash trays and vessels well and you should have no problems. If you're sloppy, you'll see where you've missed cleaning up, since selenium toner dries to red blotches on surfaces, which can be cleaned up later if you catch them soon enough. Selenium will stain trays and sinks; cleaning up can prevent the stains, but the stains themselves after cleaning are non-toxic. Prints toned in selenium are not toxic either.

If you feel you need to limit your exposure to selenium, avoiding Brazil nuts would be your first choice. Not mixing toner concentrate from scratch would be your second (I don't, I just buy the liquid concentrate). Not toning prints in selenium is way down the list.

My issue with the way some use selenium toner is that it is environmentally unsound and wasteful. Selenium toner working solutions can be filter and replenished and reused almost indefinitely. I've written enough about that here and over at the LF forum that a simple search on my name and "selenium" should turn up lots of relevant information should you be interested. Short version: use your toner until toning times get too long, then add a bit of concentrate to bring the activity back to where you like. Filter the toner with coffee filters or lab filter paper before and after each use. An advantage of this method is that the unpleasant ammonia odor disappears almost entirely with a seasoned toning solution.

Best,

Doremus
Really informative response, thanks so much.
 

wyofilm

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Selenium is a heavy metal so when it is exhausted empty it in a 5 gallon pail and let the water evaporate the metal will stay behind.

Selenium is NOT a heavy metal. It is chemically similar to sulfur, also not a metal. It likes to form complexes with metals.
 

MattKing

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The best way to help extend the life of your prints is to make sure they are fully and properly fixed, and fully and washed.
Selenium toning that results in a major change of image colour will enhance that longevity, but give you a print you may not like.
A lesser amount of selenium toning does help though - because it will often result in a stained print if your fixing and washing regimen isn't good enough.
 

koraks

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Selenium is NOT a heavy metal. It is chemically similar to sulfur, also not a metal. It likes to form complexes with metals.
Exactly, and this is also why slight selenium toning only gives slight added protection: only the silver that is bound to selenium into silver selenide is protected from potential degradation later on. It's the same principle as sulfur toning, yielding silver sulfide.
I also agree with MattKing: the best approach towards good longevity is proper processing in terms of fixing and washing. That should offer sufficient protection in itself for prints that will last more than a lifetime. How much more? We'll probably never know. Age testing is a tricky business and as far as I know, it's not done much at all these days. Lacking reliable empirical data, we have to resort to theory to give it our best shot.
 

M Carter

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I have selenium toned prints since the early 1990's and always for the colour change and until (what I think is) completion.

It takes quite some time to selenium tone to completion - if you've ever tried things like China bleaching, you'll find 20 minutes in fairly strong selenium still isn't enough!

One approach for archival permanence might be selenium + gold; since gold seems to work from the highlights down, the opposite of selenium. Someone with more knowledge would have to confirm that though.
 

JPD

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It takes quite some time to selenium tone to completion - if you've ever tried things like China bleaching, you'll find 20 minutes in fairly strong selenium still isn't enough!
That's interesting. Maybe it also depends on the type of paper used? Some papers don't seem do change much, if at all, in selenium. Other papers get an eggplant colour within a minute or two. And I remember that a Forte paper got deep brown very quickly.
 
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