How much longer can photographic film hold on?

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kb3lms

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...for the average person chemical based photography is just about dead ...

And this is true. And mainly this is because of what an earlier poster mentioned about high-tech marketing and programmed consumers. Digital photography plays right into it. For the entire century of the 1900's, camera manufacturers could make whatever camera they wanted, with whatever feature they liked. But the camera in the end was only a holder for somebody else's film. The camera manufacturer's didn't have control of the image and they didn't get recurring revenue. So Nikon (for example) sells a multi-hundred dollar camera and it's Kodak's film that the consumer ultimately uses to judge the product. Not to mention that recurring revenue stream that Kodak/Fuji/Ilford enjoys from that camera for as long as the shutter is clicking.

So the camera manufacturers wanted Kodak out of their shorts. Kodachrome is Kodachrome no matter whose camera it's in. But with DIGITAL, the manufacturer can now credibly claim there is some great difference between their camera and the next guy's due to the wonderful, special sensor only they have.

So people bought digital cameras. But, after the newness wears off they stop using that camera. Now Nikon has to come up with something new to create interest again, so they add mega-pixels and features. Now instead of the 10 MP camera, you've got to have the 18 MP camera. Does if make a difference? Not really, but like horsepower or watts or whatever, more is more so it's better. You can create a great photo with a Hasselblad, a digital P&S or an Instamatic. The photographer makes the photograph what it is, not the camera.

But how is Nikon and Canon and Pentax and so on really doing financially today? Probably not much better than they ever were and maybe not even as good, IDK. But I know this: they found out the same thing Kodak learned a hundred years ago. People use the camera a whole lot while it is new and then they lose interest. Kodak solved the problem by coming out with a new format every so often. The camera became new again because it was easier to load or it fit in your purse and Kodak sold more film with Fuji riding the wave. This means huge R&D budgets to keep developing the next great thing. Kodak had those budgets for years, but that was OK because the payoff was huge. Now the payoff isn't so huge but it's still there and that will keep someone in the business for a long time. But Nikon and Canon have to keep that R&D going and it's got to have to payoff in the end.

They they came out with cameras in iPhones and Nikon takes it in the teeth. They never figured on that! It isn't just Kodak in their shorts anymore, now you can add Apple and Motorola and whoever else. There's a whole lot more companies that make electronics than ever made that film.

And now guess what happens? Somebody came out with a new kind of analog camera and it's something new and people like it and use it - which is good for us.

My end analysis? If Nikon and Canon made film, film would still be king.
 
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kb3lms

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Amateur radio can be almost free as transmitters and receivers can be made from a few valves and other bits and pieces electronics hobbyists have in their spare parts drawers/cupboards...

Not that I disagree, but all those old analog parts are getting harder and harder to find. Soon, you won't be able to get them at all any longer and ....

Oops! Sounds like a recurring theme! :smile:
 

Steve Smith

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Not that I disagree, but all those old analog parts are getting harder and harder to find. Soon, you won't be able to get them at all any longer and ....

I have a shed full of them!

Actually, valves (tubes) like EL34, EL84, 6V6 and 6L6 are still being made for guitar amplifiers and will readily work in a single valve CW transmitter.


Steve.
 

removed account4

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And this is true. And mainly this is because of what an earlier poster mentioned about high-tech marketing and programmed consumers. Digital photography plays right into it. For the entire century of the 1900's, camera manufacturers could make whatever camera they wanted, with whatever feature they liked. But the camera in the end was only a holder for somebody else's film. The camera manufacturer's didn't have control of the image and they didn't get recurring revenue. So Nikon (for example) sells a multi-hundred dollar camera and it's Kodak's film that the consumer ultimately uses to judge the product. Not to mention that recurring revenue stream that Kodak/Fuji/Ilford enjoys from that camera for as long as the shutter is clicking.

So the camera manufacturers wanted Kodak out of their shorts. Kodachrome is Kodachrome no matter whose camera it's in. But with DIGITAL, the manufacturer can now credibly claim there is some great difference between their camera and the next guy's due to the wonderful, special sensor only they have.

So people bought digital cameras. But, after the newness wears off they stop using that camera. Now Nikon has to come up with something new to create interest again, so they add mega-pixels and features. Now instead of the 10 MP camera, you've got to have the 18 MP camera. Does if make a difference? Not really, but like horsepower or watts or whatever, more is more so it's better. You can create a great photo with a Hasselblad, a digital P&S or an Instamatic. The photographer makes the photograph what it is, not the camera.

But how is Nikon and Canon and Pentax and so on really doing financially today? Probably not much better than they ever were and maybe not even as good, IDK. But I know this: they found out the same thing Kodak learned a hundred years ago. People use the camera a whole lot while it is new and then they lose interest. Kodak solved the problem by coming out with a new format every so often. The camera became new again because it was easier to load or it fit in your purse and Kodak sold more film with Fuji riding the wave. This means huge R&D budgets to keep developing the next great thing. Kodak had those budgets for years, but that was OK because the payoff was huge. Now the payoff isn't so huge but it's still there and that will keep someone in the business for a long time. But Nikon and Canon have to keep that R&D going and it's got to have to payoff in the end.

They they came out with cameras in iPhones and Nikon takes it in the teeth. They never figured on that! It isn't just Kodak in their shorts anymore, now you can add Apple and Motorola and whoever else. There's a whole lot more companies that make electronics than ever made that film.

And now guess what happens? Somebody came out with a new kind of analog camera and it's something new and people like it and use it - which is good for us.

My end analysis? If Nikon and Canon made film, film would still be king.


http://www.nwmangum.com/Kodak/FilmHist.html
camera makers made cameras that ONLY TOOK THEIR FILM ...

but that was a long time ago ...

i don't think film would be king, if canon and nikon made film. we'd probably be in the same leaky boat we are in today,
 

kb3lms

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... valves (tubes) like EL34, EL84, 6V6 and 6L6 are still being made...

Yes, they are! Personally, I plan on going to the grave with TMAX if I don't kill myself first with that 6L6 transmitter that I plan on building someday in my workshop / darkroom!
 

spacer

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While I'll grant that film is no longer King on my end of the photographic spectrum, when I bought my FM10 new in the middle of the last decade, the salesman called me an utter fool because film would be nonexistent within a couple years. This guy was still doing custom processing at the time, too, and advised me to come to him to get my film developed. While I went ahead and bought the camera from him, I just didn't care for the negativity (no pun intended).

As for digital... when we bought my new Android phone, it instantly outmoded everything I own except for my film cameras and the EOS XSi. Sucker has a sharp (for a phone, especially) 8mp camera built in, and takes HD video to boot! All it lacks is an optical zoom, but even with a digital zoom it blows away my "older" digi-gear. I'd considered a point-n-shoot to carry with me, but there's really no need now, unless it's an XA or the like.
 

kb3lms

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i don't think film would be king, if canon and nikon made film. we'd probably be in the same leaky boat we are in today,

Yeah, it could be that way, too. Who really knows?

What I do know is that it's a beautiful day and time to load up the TMAX and Portra for the weekend.
 

michaelbsc

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Steve Smith said:
Not that I disagree, but all those old analog parts are getting harder and harder to find. Soon, you won't be able to get them at all any longer and ....

I have a shed full of them!

Actually, valves (tubes) like EL34, EL84, 6V6 and 6L6 are still being made for guitar amplifiers and will readily work in a single valve CW transmitter.


Steve.

Somewhere, if I still have it, in an old ARRL handbook I have an article about making your own triodes. If I recall correctly you use mercury to scavenge the air in the sealed envelope.
 

2F/2F

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I have a shed full of them!

Actually, valves (tubes) like EL34, EL84, 6V6 and 6L6 are still being made for guitar amplifiers and will readily work in a single valve CW transmitter.


Steve.

...and my personal favorites, 7027A's. :D
 

stavrosk

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A digital file that cannot be directly seen by man will never replace a pice of film which you can always see. It is more tangible and it never stops existing. There is no way that the file cannot be played anymore, there is no need to transfer them to your new hard drive or make them updated for the new technologies to come. With film you can always scan it when you need it.
 

michaelbsc

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stavrosk said:
A digital file that cannot be directly seen by man will never replace a pice of film which you can always see. It is more tangible and it never stops existing. There is no way that the file cannot be played anymore, there is no need to transfer them to your new hard drive or make them updated for the new technologies to come. With film you can always scan it when you need it.

And on the Voyager ships are gold records, but no MP3s.
 
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Discoman

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Or turntables. I never understood that...

:blink:

Ken

maybe any aliens it runs into will have figured out the technology behind the physical existence of a soundwave recorded onto a rotating medium?
:laugh:



in reply to OP: i thought this forum board stated this is not a place for rumors or speculation?
 

brofkand

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Chew on this for a minute:

Kodak just released two new films, Porta 160 and Porta 400. These films aren't just available in 35 and 120, the two most popular formats, but also in 4x5 and 8x10.

If Kodak finds it worth their time to make master rolls for 4x5 and 8x10, I don't have any worries that 35 or 120 are going away any time soon.

The biggest fear for these companies is digital cameras. Those are dropping faster than film is these days, besides the fact there are so many choices there's no profit to be made. People are dumping digital cameras (not SLRs; point and shoots) for SLRs and cameraphones.
 

spacer

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maybe any aliens it runs into will have figured out the technology behind the physical existence of a soundwave recorded onto a rotating medium?
:laugh:



in reply to OP: i thought this forum board stated this is not a place for rumors or speculation?

Or, the aliens' music consists of a really energetic sort of hip-hop rapper style, and they'll shred the disc on their turntable... then maybe they'll think we man-apes are pretty cool after all? :whistling::cool:
 

Aristophanes

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Perspective:
 

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2F/2F

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KanFotog

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They are not only going to India in the next months. Some days ago they have opened a new shop in Johannesburg, South Africa.
Next they will go to the Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Suisse, Turkey, Mexico, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, Phillipines.
And will extend their operations by openning new shops in USA, England, Germany, France, China.
Lomo it not a fad. This movement is 20 years old. And still rapidly growing.
Because they do an very effective marketing, and do a great job in encouraging people to use film.
Not like lots of apuggers here, which definitely discourage new users to use film by all their permanent doom and gloom and sky is falling praying.

Do you want to join a club which is permanently debating it's own closure? Of course not!
You will go on and join a club with a positive outlook.

That is what Lomo do: Their slogan is "the future is analogue". They have a positive outlook, that is attractive for young people.
Lomo know very well that economics is 50% psychology. If people believe in the future of a system, they will buy.

Good to know Lomo is spreading the F word
I'm all for film so don't mind if it takes Lomo or Kodak or Fuji to bring it back.

I've been waiting to buy a Lomo too. I in fact tried to get one with my F80, but for some weird reasons, couldn't.

Now that they're coming to India, I'm hoping to just walk into a store and get one, as opposed to ordering and paying huge shipping charges and waiting for weeks.

It's kinda hard to call Lomo a fad when we're still buying essentially the same denim in various shades of blue, even with pre-faded and torn/worn looks :smile:

Cheers,
Som
 

cmacd123

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Somewhere, if I still have it, in an old ARRL handbook I have an article about making your own triodes. If I recall correctly you use mercury to scavenge the air in the sealed envelope.

Some of the old Vacuum pumps used mercury. It is too far off topic on APUG but their are a few hardy folks who have built there own tubes/Valves.

The existing commercial makers of Tubes tend to be from China and Russia and exist mainly on the Guitar market, often using tooling that was designed for Soviet Military production.

I would guess that the level of technology required to make a Black and White paper, and to make a vacuum tube are on the same order of magnitude. Unlike Film making, there is the posibilty to find the machinery that used to be used to rebuild Picture Tubes for B&W TV sets. The smallest setups would fit in a double garage and conatin the "tricky bits.

As far as Film, I an crossing my fingers taht one of Foma or Ilford can hold on and successfully downsize or diversify to fit the market.
 

BobCrowley

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The vaccum tube analogy is a good one. We looked at a related technology - ribbon microphones - that were also obsolete and came up with acoustic nanofilm to finally make them manufacturable and durable, and sound better, and made a bundle. Ham radio was a big part of the knowledge base that made it possible.

Light sensitive photonic nanomaterials are a hot area today and are in their infancy. Silver based photography is the original photonic nanomaterial. Light sensitive material science is in its earliest stage today.

I visited Ilford two months ago, and TIP too. Both are fine places with excellent people, mostly serving existing markets, and are therefore self-limited. New markets, such as Lomography, expose newcomers and create new product opportunities.

Linear growth/decline curves are passe, and overly simplistic. The world is a much more complex place, fragmented, with no "mainstream" like we had for decades.

http://new55project.blogspot.com
 
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