Exactly.
IR820 Infrared Film: Any Chance for an Adox-Supported Reboot?
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they dont sell them to the public because you have to sign user agreements most likely after the infamous sony night vision fiasco but you can buy a fuji gfx 100 IR as an institution or company no problem
This sounds like one of those invented, imagined problems.
Like when tv manufacturers bend over backwards to make a remotes that didn’t require batteries in the fifties and sixties, out of false concern that consumers where too stupid to comprehend the concept of an expired battery.
Or likewise the obsession with full battery less operation of cameras.
You can teach people to put film in the freezer. And most bigger photoshops have a freezer, or cooler, or could be convinced to buy one for faster film.
This is what I was trying to get at. There's plenty of IR viewers/cameras out there. Just not in the mass market interchangeable lens kind of thing we could afford. I have a toy, that I use in my darkroom that's a great IR unit. It's great for darkroom use.
Or you can buy an old digital camera at a thrift store, open it up and take the IR filter off the sensor.
This reminds me of the Nikon Nikonos auto focus SLR that had sales restrictions to keep the Soviets from photographing our navy.
No, it's a well known problem as you add more speed & red sensitivity to an emulsion - it's apparently a major part of why TMZ never made it into 120 as the whole backing paper would have had to be completely redesigned for better IR impermeability. It is probable that via a combination of carefully controlled speed/ sensitivity cut-off decisions, Ilford were able to make SFX and Delta 3200 feasible in 120. There are reports of some individuals managing to fog images of their fingertips on to some deep IR materials from their body heat - these materials were super sensitive to even seemingly mild amounts of radiant heat. Even storage in lead lined boxes in a deep freeze may not be enough to stop all radiation affecting stuff like HIE/ HSI. Konica's IR film had a green gap & relatively short IR sensitivity - just over 800nm - and was available in 120, but I recall it was essentially made once a year with about a 1 year date stamp on it.
you can because the conversion companies don't care what you do with them. It's just the manufacturers who care what you do with their in house converted cameras
This is somewhat an issue for me (speaking of cameras from the 90s or before), not because of the battery, but because the fact you NEED a battery means the camera depends on decades old repairable (largely) and hard to replace electronics.
I’m not contesting that keepabilitiy is a problem.
It is a well known problem.
It’s that it isn’t manageable that I think is wrong.
We don’t need HIE speed and extension to better the current products.
Kodachrome speeds, useable range to 780 and a wide green gap would be a big improvement.
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Mechanical components can be just as bad. If good quality electronics components where used, they will still work and capacitors will be replaceable with new ones.
That wasn’t so much my argument though. It was more to do with new product.
Sometimes you can lock yourself into dogmatic ideas and modes of thought for no good reason. Assuming something is a problem “because”.
Which Kodachrome? That could be anything from ISO 6-200...
I have a suspicion that getting a good 'green gap' sensitisation is much harder to achieve than 'extended red' (for example, I think SFX - which derived from traffic enforcement/ surveillance film - was not intended for use initially as a strict IR film, but rather to allow compatibility with IR flash and the like, while delivering a normal tonal range under daylight) - and may involve constraints on emulsion construction etc in order to get the dyes/ supersensitisers to work well (and possibly causing a J-aggregate to occur) - thus meaning you may need to design the entire emulsion around IR functionality, rather than being able to take an extant structure & extend/ cut the sensitivity purely by altering the dyes. Some of the Tricarbocyanines may be the stepping stones to a suitable dye. It all seems like it might a bit of a balancing act to get enough of a green gap to allow a #16 or #21 filter to do the job, while cutting on the red/ IR sensitivity reasonably early & off again at a point that allows for OK-ish keeping. I suspect that the Kodak and Konica products had the benefit of their R&D costs being largely covered by military/ industrial/ governmental customers who needed the product rather than wanted it.
Which Kodachrome? That could be anything from ISO 6-200...
I have a suspicion that getting a good 'green gap' sensitisation is much harder to achieve than 'extended red' (for example, I think SFX - which derived from traffic enforcement/ surveillance film - was not intended for use initially as a strict IR film, but rather to allow compatibility with IR flash and the like, while delivering a normal tonal range under daylight) - and may involve constraints on emulsion construction etc in order to get the dyes/ supersensitisers to work well (and possibly causing a J-aggregate to occur) - thus meaning you may need to design the entire emulsion around IR functionality, rather than being able to take an extant structure & extend/ cut the sensitivity purely by altering the dyes. Some of the Tricarbocyanines may be the stepping stones to a suitable dye. It all seems like it might a bit of a balancing act to get enough of a green gap to allow a #16 or #21 filter to do the job, while cutting on the red/ IR sensitivity reasonably early & off again at a point that allows for OK-ish keeping. I suspect that the Kodak and Konica products had the benefit of their R&D costs being largely covered by military/ industrial/ governmental customers who needed the product rather than wanted it.
Ok so let’s just say 20 to 64 IR speed would be good.
No doubt you are right about the surveillance applications of the film dictating the spectrum, resolution, contrast and speed.
They need/needed to be a jack of all trades. And is geared towards pulling information out rather that look good and be flexible.
I always imagined “real” IR film “just” being old fashioned blue sensitive emulsion with the IR sensitizers added.
A large amount of research has been going on in sensitizing solar cells with dyes over the last twenty years especially WRT using the infrared part of the spectrum.
Some of that might be readily applicable to film?
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To a certain extent, that's what it appears to be - though I don't doubt that there were very real engineering/ cost limitations that meant that only because a specific institutional client(s) needed a material like 2424 was it feasible to take it into production (and then convert it down to HIE/ HSI) - there seem to have been a significant number of specialist plates made for scientific purposes with very deep/ specific IR sensitivities, but from what I recall of encountering a box of them, pre-use storage was supposed to be at -18°C - and a spectroscopic plate isn't necessarily chosen for its ability to render an image in the sense of how we would want an emulsion to render a scene. Even HIE's specs are rather poor in sharpness and granularity compared to a film designed from the outset for use at sea level - though fine for aerial mapping.
A new, SUPPORTED, product is fine (like my Fujifilm XT-2).
Well, this thread is directed at Adox, even posted in their own forum.
Mirko of Adox has been repeatedly online meanwhile, discussing a matter of his firm. But he refrained from replying here. We should take this as an answer.
Mirko of Adox has been repeatedly online meanwhile, discussing a matter of his firm. But he refrained from replying here. We should take this as an answer.
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