It's just words, words, words: Describing and interpreting film performance.

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aparat

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While researching the FA-1027 film developer, I came across a very interesting account of its performance. Here are a few quotes from the Photographers’ Formulary documentation supplied with the developer:

“My HP-5 negatives developed in FA-1027 resemble the clear, crisply defined Tri-X / HC-110 negatives I was so used to; without the high contrast effect. Prints made from FA-1027 negatives show broad distinct breaks of tone in all areas. There is none of the D-76-like high value compression, and no loss of density in Zones VI and below as with HC-110 (the HC in HC-110 stands for high contrast).”
“Negatives are optimum: high in local contrast, low in overall contrast, with very high acutance. Plus and minus development with FA-1027 will also yield superior negatives. The same distinct breaks of tone are in evidence, with the contrast either raised or lowered. With other developers, you'll get an overall gain or loss in density with only a slight contrast change.”
“FA-1027 produces a very fine negative with Ilford HP-5 film, for example. There is a very distinct high value separation in Zones VI and above. In Zones V and below, there is just as impressive a separation, without the dumping of those values into murky darkness; as is the case with the Tri-X/HC-110 effect. “

The documentation goes on and on in some detail along the same lines. I find the description confusing. It reads a bit like a word salad, devoid of useful information. I have found similar prose in photography textbooks and magazines over the years.

Accounts of film performance abound throughout photography textbooks, magazines, websites, forum posts, and marketing materials. They range from highly structured, principled, quantitative frameworks (e.g., the Zone System), all the way to loose collections of vague qualitative terms. As most things in photography, it is not a question of right or wrong; rather, it is about choosing an approach that can help one achieve one’s artistic vision. Just because the above account of FA-1027 fails to convey a meaningful message to me, doesn’t mean it is wrong or unhelpful to others.

I think it’s important to talk about how to improve our understanding of film performance, especially now that film prices keep going up, making trial and error methodologies prohibitively expensive. Personally, I find quantitative frameworks particularly useful because of their descriptive and predictive power. However, I also enjoy reading insightful prose describing one’s subjective experiences with films, exposure, and developers. For example, Barry Thornton’s adventures in crafting his own developers included in his book “Edge of Darkness” (Amphoto Books, 2001) offer an account that attempts to bridge quantitative and qualitative analyses. His carefully and consistently chosen common descriptive terms, such as “liquid,” “hot,” even “bulletproof,” make sense to me. Sure, it would have been nice to see a few plots but I do think I understand Thornton’s account.

What type of description of film (and developer) performance do you find most useful in your work? Could you give an example of an account that you enjoyed reading and learning from?
 
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faberryman

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Just the facts, ma’am. And then personal inspection of the negatives and the prints therefrom.
 
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Bill Burk

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My favorite rabbit holes are the comparative pictures in Modern Photography to illustrate the glowing texts that claim such and such is so great… and I can barely tell a lick of difference between them.
 

ags2mikon

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What Bill Burk just said. I have been seeing this for over 50 years. Glowing test reports written by the manufactures PR department with pictures that are indistinguishable from the others.
 

oxcanary

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I used to wallow in these like a comfort blanket, somehow ’Knowing‘ I was doing the right thing. What you come out realising is that 90% of what you do ends up being usable to make a printed black and white picture. You may then look at your prints and say I wish such and such was like such and such - but in the end only you know this!

Nonetheless, you do wind up with things you love. They can be simple - e.g. I adore FP4+ just because I always like the look and some of my favourites were taken with this. Or they can be complex one thing upon another. I am fond of Rodinal developed negatives for lith printing because some subjects at their edge dissolve into grain If printed correctly - especially clouds. At this point I should prepare some pretentious tagline that says ‘ This art is me somehow seeing beyond the human eye to the edge of indistinctness. A place where reality and beyond blend making this place visible’. If you accept this and want to start buying my prints at vastly inflated prices please form an orderly queue - right now whose first?
 

halfaman

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I find that very standard film-developer combinations following manufacturer indications fulfill my needs regarding B/W, which I normally shot in 35mm for street photography using ISO 400 films. I like D76 1:1+Tri-X or TMax Dev 1:4+TMax 400 if I want less grain, and lately I have enjoyed the express processing of HP5 and Foma 400 (this at ISO 200) in Dektol 1+1 for 60 seconds. In MF I really liked Rodinal 1:50+Tri-X, gorgeous shadows to my eyes, and original Fuji Neopan Acros in any developer I used (Rodinal, D76, TMax Dev, FX-39), but long time since I shot my last 120 roll of B/W.
 
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koraks

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I google a bit on this developer and hit upon this pdf apparently published by Fine Art: https://www.argentix.ca/specs/591.pdf
The author goes into the question why such a great developer wouldn't have been introduced earlier by a major manufacturer. Here's what they have to say about the reasons:
One is that there are research chemists employed by photo companies who are happy to tow the corporate line and not make any waves. Another is that there are, or were, many talented chemists who have developed wonderful formulae like FA-1027, but who were stonewalled by upper management; being told such developers, however good, would cut into the sales of D-76, and weaken it’s market appeal. Still another reason is that many chemists, knowing the effects developers have on film emulsions, are not very keen on the finer differences between, for example, distinct local contrast in high values, and high value compression – in an aesthetic sense. In other words, tone-blind. It’s a slide-rule mentality.

As soon as marketing a product involves contriving conspiracy theories to put generations of engineers in a bad light, I'm out. What a piece of godawful codswallop that is. The entire piece, btw. It starts off reasonably alright, but devolves into a highly annoying flavor of quasi-poetic, self-absorbed and naïve arrogance. It's undoubtedly written by the same hand that wrote the equally ridiculous 'product description' quoted in the first post.

What type of description of film (and developer) performance do you find most useful in your work?

1: Is it a powder or a liquid concentrate?
2: What dilution range is used?
3: What's a ballpark development time & temperature starting point for a couple of popular film stocks?
4: Any particular properties; e.g. is it a staining developer, what is the shelf life of the concentrate (if liquid), any safety precautions?
That's about it. An MSDS is nice to have as well for technical and safety reference. Leave the poetry to poets.
 
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I think photographers like many craft people get to into the weeds about their hobby. Digital photographers talk incessantly about DR and resolution and ISO's. Film photographers about grain, chemicals, etc. For both groups, these things make little difference in art and whether people like the picture. It's not about numbers but rather vision.
 

Tom Kershaw

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As soon as marketing a product involves contriving conspiracy theories to put generations of engineers in a bad light, I'm out. What a piece of godawful codswallop that is.

I fully endorse this statement. The extent to which snake-oil products are marketed, tolerated, and sometimes encouraged in photography is alarming.
 

gone

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word salad

Love it. Thanks, I learned a new term today. It's the internet, we get words or rezzed down photos. It's nice to go to a gallery now and then and see stuff on the wall. Unfortunately, that is getting harder to find.
 

pentaxuser

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I google a bit on this developer and hit upon this pdf apparently published by Fine Art: https://www.argentix.ca/specs/591.pdf
The author goes into the question why such a great developer wouldn't have been introduced earlier by a major manufacturer. Here's what they have to say about the reasons:


As soon as marketing a product involves contriving conspiracy theories to put generations of engineers in a bad light, I'm out. What a piece of godawful codswallop that is. The entire piece, btw. It starts off reasonably alright, but devolves into a highly annoying flavor of quasi-poetic, self-absorbed and naïve arrogance. It's undoubtedly written by the same hand that wrote the equally ridiculous 'product description' quoted in the first post.

Fully agree. After the first few sentences I was almost expecting a sentence stating that it made the lame walk the blind see etc😄

pentaxuser
 

Sirius Glass

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One of the best ways is a chart like this
XTOL.png
 

Peter Schrager

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A lot of issues come up because we are constantly trying to match a fairly long scale negative to paper that has a much shorter scale
I'm out of that realm because I do alternative process and seldom have any issues
I love xtol for full speed and convenience
Pyro does it for large format
Rodinal for fuji acros..
I've tried lots of different developers even Barry Thornton 2 bath recently and it works well
 
OP
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aparat

aparat

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One of the best ways is a chart like this
I like this a lot, too. It's a simple but effective look at the data.

I also think that a family of characteristic curves can help, though it is only one look at the data and should be followed by additional testing, especially with a final product in mind. Here's a quick look at Delta 100 in different developers.

Screenshot_20230201_152107_Flickr.jpg
 

alanrockwood

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I like this a lot, too. It's a simple but effective look at the data.

I also think that a family of characteristic curves can help, though it is only one look at the data and should be followed by additional testing, especially with a final product in mind. Here's a quick look at Delta 100 in different developers.

View attachment 328419

Interesting curves.

A few non-rigorous impressions:

XTOL and F-76, S-curve, especially for F-76

D-76, quite linear, short toe

HC-110, long toe followed by linear

R09, long toe followed by linear, slightly less film speed as indicated by delay in toe toward more exposure.

Any thoughts?
 

Maris

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Film performance is important but I think nine tenths of the photographic challenge is finding appropriately expressive subject matter in the right lighting.

Of the one tenth remaining half is camera handling, film exposure, and film processing. This part is easy to get right with some practice and conscientious attention to detail.
It's like flying a helicopter - usually very routine but a bad mistake spells disaster.

The last bit, printing the negative, gets easy with experience. All the controls, burning, dodging, toning, contrast allocation, etc, are familiar and useful. I generally get the print I want
but a more accomplished photographer may make better choices than the ones I'll settle for.
 
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aparat

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Interesting curves.

A few non-rigorous impressions:

XTOL and F-76, S-curve, especially for F-76

D-76, quite linear, short toe

HC-110, long toe followed by linear

R09, long toe followed by linear, slightly less film speed as indicated by delay in toe toward more exposure.

Any thoughts?

Yes, all true. I guess the problem is that we currently do not have a clear way to "translate" quantitative analysis, such as the characteristic curve family, into a qualitative description, using terms such as "tonality," "long," "short," "extended," "smooth," etc. The best I can do in my own work is apply tone reproduction analysis, which involves a four-quadrant plot, along with even more data. These are useless to most photographers and I have even heard comments that such analysis detracts from the art of photography. I cannot disagree with that. As I mentioned before, to me, this is not a question of right or wrong. It's whatever works.

Having said that, rigorous quantitative work can help understand why different developers result in different tonalities, how agitation affects tonality, how to get most shadow detail, etc. For example, there's a common belief that stand and semi-stand development result in "compensating" action, whereby there is a lot of compression in the highlights, preventing them from "blowing out." I have not found this to be true, at least not with the handful of developers I've tried. Here's a family processed in Rodinal 1+100 (Rollei R09 One Shot) using a semi-stand agitation: First minute continuous, followed by stand, two gentle inversions at the half-point, followed by stand. I do get about a 1/4 to 1/3 stop more shadow detail (compared to 1+25 with rotary agitation), but there's virtually no compression in the highlights. Still, I happen to like the results with Delta 100 and Fomapan 100.

delta100_Rodinal100 by Nick Mazur, on Flickr
 

relistan

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Of the one tenth remaining half is camera handling, film exposure, and film processing. This part is easy to get right with some practice and conscientious attention to detail.
It's like flying a helicopter - usually very routine but a bad mistake spells disaster.

I like this analogy. I try to get consistency in this part so it enables me to do the rest and have some idea what I will end up with. In the helicopter analogy: I know I’ll be able to land this thing because it will stay in the air.
 

snusmumriken

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Speaking selfishly for myself, what I want to learn from the stupendous amount of work you are doing and generously sharing is not detailed guidance on how to turn subject brightness x into print tone y, but a broad understanding of how film choice and development affect the overall tonality of the image. In other words, could I improve on my current favourites, given the type of subjects I like to photograph?
 

runswithsizzers

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The documentation goes on and on in some detail along the same lines. I find the description confusing. It reads a bit like a word salad, devoid of useful information. I have found similar prose in photography textbooks and magazines over the years.
So true.

Some people say, "A picture is worth a thousand words.' Others say, 'You can't tell anything about film from looking at photos online, just look at the curves." (I'm waiting for someone to print a large set of curves, put a nice frame around them, and hang them on the wall. ;-)


What type of description of film (and developer) performance do you find most useful in your work? Could you give an example of an account that you enjoyed reading and learning from?
I prefer articles which are a mix of carefully chosen words and photo examples - articles aimed more at practical results than technical theory. A few curves can be useful, but I cannot live by curves alone. And please! every graph, table and chart should have clearly labeled x and y-axes, column and row headings, units for all numbers, and there should be a key for anything represented by color or different graph line styles!

Some examples:
Dr. Moss did a nice article titled "Ilford XP2 Super in Black & White Chemistry" - http://drmoss.ca/xp2.htm

And Scott Micciche has done several articles exploring various films as processed in various chemmisties, such as this one: https://emulsive.org/articles/film-...f-ferrania-p30-alpha-part-1-by-scott-micciche

What I can't stand are YouTube videos. No way am I going watch a stupid YouTube video, no thank you. [one exception: I will watch Julieanne Kost's Photoshop/Lightroom tutorials, because she gets right down to business without wasting my time with a dog and pony show like the vast majority of YouTube videos do.]
 
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aparat

aparat

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Speaking selfishly for myself, what I want to learn from the stupendous amount of work you are doing and generously sharing is not detailed guidance on how to turn subject brightness x into print tone y, but a broad understanding of how film choice and development affect the overall tonality of the image. In other words, could I improve on my current favourites, given the type of subjects I like to photograph?

Thank you. Yes, that is the idea. I'd like to get closer to understanding how to marry purely quantitative descriptions of exposure, film (and paper), development with the purely descriptive accounts. I am willing to bet that each discerning photographer already has such a system in place. It may be intuitive, it may be based on prior experience, it may be the result of reading data sheets, it may be based on Zone System testing, etc., but such accounts only make perfect sense to that photographer, making generalizable descriptions difficult. There are countless examples of such descriptions in photographic publications that probably make perfect sense to the author, but much less to the reader.

For example, the idea of "lumpiness" came up in this thread and the one on tabular grain films. We can see how this "lumpiness" shows up in the characteristic curve, but we do not know why this happens. Even the very term "lumpy" probably has a different meaning to different people. The lumpiness can be described as both local and global non-linearities with the film's response to exposure and development. Perhaps it happens because of the multi-layered structure of the emulsion. It would be reasonable to assume that each light-sensitive layer has its own transfer function, and the overall response is some sort of aggregate, hence displaying lumpiness where the individual layers' responses cross over? This is pure speculation. It would be nice if a chemist could chime in, especially someone with experience with tabular grain films. The Delta films do not seem to have this characteristic, at least not to the same degree.

With simple emulsions, such as the Ferrania P30, it's possible to create a model that fits the data pretty well. With such a model, we can synthesize an entire family of characteristic curves (based on a set of criteria, such as development time, CI, Gamma, etc.) and have them look similar to the actual data (see the example below). However, with KODAK T-MAX emulsions, especially the P3200, it is harder to do.

ferraniaP30 by Nick Mazur, on Flickr
ferraniaP30Table by Nick Mazur, on Flickr

ferraniaP30S by Nick Mazur, on Flickr
ferraniaP30STable by Nick Mazur, on Flickr
 
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