Light Lens Lab - New Film Project

TimKr · Jan 29, 2025

Just stumbled upon this: Film Project Announcement

I've never bought any product from them but this sounds interesting. I wonder how they are planning on getting the necessary investment in machinery.

Any thoughts?

Prest_400 · Jan 29, 2025

Interesting. Did not know about this supplier and have a quite plausible speculation.

It's not simple to create anything in that roadmap, if not just see how Harman has Phoenix, Ferrania has stuck to old classic cubic grain BW and ADOX is very transparent about the challenges of film manufacturing. Specially color.

In the day and age where new film is just a recan of Kodak (Vision 3), Orwo and Foma rebrands... I would say that for the large part it is to Just distribute.

But about the T Grain film development, interesting. I speculate that is a partnership with a Chinese film maker.
Meanwhile Lucky are making BW and have the goal for color during this year...

Another brand heard from after a long while.. Lucky Film.

I wonder if there's a chance of 30m bulk rolls of Lucky colour film? I have a local lab operated by someone who will undoubtedly return my reusable cassettes if I go down that particular route. Watching this thread with interest. Not wanting Kodak to suffer, because they've been truly great...

www.photrio.com

Oldwino · Jan 29, 2025

Very ambitious project. I hope they find some success. They make some very good lenses, particularly for Leica m-mount.
I seem to remember they are also (or had been) looking at developing a Barnack-style film camera.

Agulliver · Jan 29, 2025

I'd never heard of these people before. Interesting. very ambitious but if they have already made something approaching a viable T-grain B&W film then they're making progress already.

mollyc · Jan 29, 2025

They make a few Leica lenses (some might say knockoff). Peel apart film would be amazing though.

Archiloque · Jan 29, 2025

mollyc said:
They make a few Leica lenses (some might say knockoff). Peel apart film would be amazing though.

Knock off is a harsh word. They are remaking - down to hand grinding and polishing, glass index, etc - legendary lenses like the Leica 50mm 1.2 Noctilux, Cooke speed panchro and such. They really are prestigious and amazing reproductions of unavailable and discontinued lenses that are worth tens of thousands mostly for rarity reasons.

Pretty impressed by their philosophy, every lens has been praised by enthusiasts. It may be a bite way too big to chew, but I am curious however.

mollyc · Jan 30, 2025

Archiloque said:
Knock off is a harsh word. They are remaking - down to hand grinding and polishing, glass index, etc - legendary lenses like the Leica 50mm 1.2 Noctilux, Cooke speed panchro and such. They really are prestigious and amazing reproductions of unavailable and discontinued lenses that are worth tens of thousands mostly for rarity reasons.

Pretty impressed by their philosophy, every lens has been praised by enthusiasts. It may be a bite way too big to chew, but I am curious however.

I didn't say that *I* think they are knockoffs....but there are people out there who do think so.

4season · Jan 30, 2025

TimKr said:
Just stumbled upon this: Film Project Announcement

I've never bought any product from them but this sounds interesting. I wonder how they are planning on getting the necessary investment in machinery.

Any thoughts?

My first thought is that they are working with a company such as JC Film, and in fact, JCF's web site notes that they do OEM work.

blee1996 · Jan 30, 2025

If they can make just one good new film emulsion, that will already be mission accomplished. But it does not hurt to be ambitious.

Lachlan Young · Jan 30, 2025

4season said:
My first thought is that they are working with a company such as JC Film, and in fact, JCF's web site notes that they do OEM work.

JCF's emulsions/ coating seem now to be Invoiscoat/ Orwo derived, rather than holdovers from Shanghai.

In other words, it's a case of whoever has the cash for Inovis to buy machine time to make coated film/ paper on the plant that's passed from their hands to Polaroid/ Impossible - with any subsequent conversion/ packaging being JCF or LLL etc's responsibility.

Richard Man · Jan 31, 2025

"I heard on the Internet that...." Sigh.

Their Cooke Speed Panchro II for Leica M is amazing, with the classic Cooke look. Their recreation of the 35/2 Summicron is also excellent. Both of these are fractions of the prices of the originals.

Chinese manufacturers are really upping their games. Eons ago, Japanese cars and electronics were cheap "knockoffs". Twenty years ago, Korean cars were a joke. I think Chinese manufacturers are undergoing similar transition.

Film-Niko · Feb 7, 2025

TimKr said:
Just stumbled upon this: Film Project Announcement

I've never bought any product from them but this sounds interesting. I wonder how they are planning on getting the necessary investment in machinery.

Any thoughts?

I don't buy their story at all.
They are a tiny start-up in lens manufacturing. They don't have any knowledge at all in film manufacturing.
And we all here on Photrio know how extremely difficult producing film is!!
What they have shown there is most probably all from Lucky-Film, so nothing new at all. We know Lucky-Film, know the history and their products in the past. And their current (not very convincing) attempts to produce basic BW films again.

Don_ih · Feb 7, 2025

Film-Niko said:
They don't have any knowledge at all in film manufacturing.

So, where's your proof of that? How do you know what their academic and professional backgrounds are and who they have been in contact with or potentially hiring or taking on as a partner?

Film-Niko · Feb 7, 2025

Don_ih said:
So, where's your proof of that? How do you know what their academic and professional backgrounds are and who they have been in contact with or potentially hiring or taking on as a partner?

I know experts in the lens manufacturing industry who know the Light Lens Lab people. There are no film experts and chemists working there.

And:
Those companies / factories who are able to make film emulsions and can coat film are very well known, there are no "secret" film manufacturers.
That is what we have globally:
- Eastman Kodak
- Fujifilm
- Polaroid
- Harman technology
- Foma
- Agfa-Gevaert
- Adox
- Film Ferrania
- Lucky
- Tasma
- InovisCoat / FilmoTec (still in insolvency, future uncertain).

And then the two tiny operations of Washi and Jason Lane who are more or less "hand coating" their products (great respect for that).

Don_ih · Feb 7, 2025

Film-Niko said:
there are no "secret" film manufacturers

There don't need to be. There can be people with the knowledge to do it that are not currently doing it.

Whether or not they can make film depends on how much they want to do it and how much they can invest in it.

What would they gain from falsely claiming they are doing this? If they try to peddle an existing emulsion as their own, they'll be caught instantly.

Film-Niko · Feb 7, 2025

Don_ih said:
There don't need to be. There can be people with the knowledge to do it that are not currently doing it.

You can of course continue to dream, it is up to you.
I stay realistic. My sources are working in that industry successfully for decades, and have always given me 100% correct information.
I trust them.

Don_ih said:
Whether or not they can make film depends on how much they want to do it and how much they can invest in it.

You are completely underestimating the difficulties in producing film. If it would be so easy than we would not have had all the problems we've seen in this industry over the years with the big players Kodak and Fuji, and the small players like Film Ferrania, Adox, InovisCoat / FilmoTec.
Film production is extremely challenging.

Don_ih said:
What would they gain from falsely claiming they are doing this? If they try to peddle an existing emulsion as their own, they'll be caught instantly.

Marketing. We've seen this behaviour so often in the last years (Maco, Bellamy Hunt, CatLabs.....just to name a few). It gains attention. Some of the stupid film youtubers with no knowledge about film production already spread this story and took it for real.
Most film photographers have never heard about their lenses..... now they have, marketing in the works......
Concerning your last sentence: They don't do this, read their text: "This film project will be marketed under a different brand name."

This is most probably a marketing cooperation between them and Lucky Film. It is certainly not a new film manufacturing facility.

Don_ih · Feb 7, 2025

Film-Niko said:
You are completely underestimating the difficulties in producing film. If it would be so easy than we would not have had all the problems we've seen in this industry over the years with the big players Kodak and Fuji, and the small players like Film Ferrania, Adox, InovisCoat / FilmoTec.

I'm not underestimating it. You seem to be forgetting that film could be successfully made in mass quantities over 100 years ago, before anyone else was doing it. They figured it out to meet a demand. The problem currently is there is not enough demand to provide incentive to figure it out or hire people who can.

My actual point is this: I know you think there is value in what you're saying, but there isn't. Time will disclose to us all whether or not they produce any film and whether or not it was made by them or others. If they are using it simply for publicity, great. Their lens-making business deserves to thrive. By all accounts, they make good lenses. If they don't make a new film, it really has no impact on anyone. All speculative statements made here or elsewhere are equal, because nothing depends on what they do or don't do.

Film-Niko · Feb 7, 2025

Don_ih said:
The problem currently is there is not enough demand to provide incentive to figure it out or hire people who can.

That isn't the case. For several years the demand for colour film has been even so high that the manufacturers could not produce enough. I am living in a region with excellent film supply, but even here the most popular amateur color negative films have not been available for about three years. That changed only recently, because manufacturers have increased production capacity.

Don_ih said:
My actual point is this: I know you think there is value in what you're saying, but there isn't.

As I have explained above, I know experts in the lens manufacturing industry who know the Light Lens Lab people. And there are no film experts and chemists working there at LLL, only lens designers and production staff. My sources are working in that industry successfully for decades, and have always given me 100% correct information. Thefore I can trust them to 100%.
You now say there is no value in what I am saying. That means you claim that my sources are either idiots, or they are lying to me.
Sorry, but that is an extremely arrogant statement, especially from someone who is outside that industry, and has no inside knowledge.

Archiloque · Feb 7, 2025

Film-Niko said:
You now say there is no value in what I am saying. That means you claim that my sources are either idiots, or they are lying to me.
Sorry, but that is an extremely arrogant statement, especially from someone who is outside that industry, and has no inside knowledge.

Let's just say nobody knows. Your sources may know the opticians at LLL, but the hypothesis could just be that LLL is working with hand in hand with Lucky. That would be a perfectly sensible explanation. Also, you might admit your knowledge of the situation is indirect and you're just repeating hearsay.

Film-Niko · Feb 7, 2025

Archiloque said:
Let's just say nobody knows. Your sources may know the opticians at LLL, but the hypothesis could just be that LLL is working with hand in hand with Lucky. That would be a perfectly sensible explanation.

Please read what I have written: There is probably a cooperation with Lucky, as the samples they have shown look identical to the current Lucky BW films.
But it won't be a cooperation in neither film emulsion R&D nor film coating, because LLL has no capacities in that.
It will be a cooperation in marketing and / or distribution.

We've had so many fancy marketing stories during the last decade from small companies with no experience at all in making film, and promising new film products and a shiny future. All of them failed, some of them were a cheat and exploiting naive customers right from the beginning.
Time to learn the lessons, from a customer's perspective.

Marcelo Paniagua · Feb 7, 2025

Understand your feelings Niko. But find it odd that a serious company like LLL would do some marketing rip-off.

I had dealings with people involved with LLL when they introduced the lead summicron reproduction and they were quite transparent on expectations. Nothing but respect for them.

I guess only time will tell. Too early to throw a judgement.

Don_ih · Feb 7, 2025

My only point, @Film-Niko , is that you are just being a downer. No one is going to be heartbroken if this company produces nothing. But people could be happy if they made something new. You just want to burst half-filled balloons.

Xylo · Feb 7, 2025

Film-Niko said:
Those companies / factories who are able to make film emulsions and can coat film are very well known, there are no "secret" film manufacturers.
That is what we have globally:
- Eastman Kodak
- Fujifilm
- Polaroid
- Harman technology
- Foma
- Agfa-Gevaert
- Adox
- Film Ferrania
- Lucky
- Tasma
- InovisCoat / FilmoTec (still in insolvency, future uncertain).

I can't remember the company right now (I'd really have to search), but I know Lomography gets their film coated at another manufacturer that is not Filmotec. Light Labs might be doing the same.

GabrielC · Feb 7, 2025

I think that taking the plan with a grain of salt is rather healthy, as we know many others that underestimated the hurdles of making colour film, even coming from B&W.

What I want to point out is this sentence in their blog post : "The Film Project will utilize our newly developed proprietary machine and emulsion process, allowing us to be self-sufficient in our production."

It seems that they indeed weren't capable of producing film up to recently, and are just starting with what's the easiest, black and white film. However, they apparently already managed to have T-grain film, even showing examples of the structure, and a film example. I'd say it's rather transparent.
One thing I'd like to add is the industrial strength of China nowadays, if there is one place where a completely new manufacturer can emerge it is China, with experienced engineers, low manufacturing costs, and many brilliant minds.

With Fujifilm's history, we know that some new manufacturers can enter fast, with sufficient investments. I'm fairly confident that they could manage to make colour film in the coming years.

However, their roadmap seems a bit optimistic, but to be fair they didn't include a timeline. if we can see colour film made next year or even in 2 or 3 years, it would be quite a feat. Peel apart, I'd guess is many years away. But I'd like to be shown otherwise !

Film-Niko · Feb 7, 2025

Don_ih said:
My only point, @Film-Niko , is that you are just being a downer.

No, I am not. I am just being realistic and looking at the facts. That is a huge difference!
And we have witnessed here many times in the past how much dissappointment and frustration was generated in the film community by promised new film products by small newcomer companies which were never realized.

Light Lens Lab - New Film Project

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