Light Lens Lab - New Film Project

[TimKr]

They posted an update.
There isn't that much new info but apparently, they want to use an "automatic emulsion process machine" for the next batch of tests and are planning to release a BW film this year.

Sounds very ambitious to me which makes me think that maybe the Lucky film collaboration theory mentioned here has some merit. But I am nowhere close to having the information sources some other posters in this thread have.

 

[koraks]

OK, so they've just processed a second, hand-made roll of film, and their roadmap is to have mass-produced film on the market this year.

Sounds very ambitious to me

To me, too!

 

[Agulliver]

Seems too ambitious but they d seem to have a track record with their lenses so this is no here today, gone tomorrow shady operation. I await the next news.

 

[ags2mikon]

I wish them the best.

 

[Light Lens Lab]

Seems like the news about Rochester got out

 

[Film-Niko]

Seems like the news about Rochester got out

Welcome to photrio!

Well, the "Rochester news" create much more questions than answers. It would be highly appreciated by the film community if useful information with evidence and substance could be given by you.
Thank you very much in advance!

 

[koraks]

Seems like the news about Rochester got out

Welcome aboard! It's great to have you here on the forum and I hope you'll be willing to share some insights with the curious members of this forum as well. We'd all appreciate it greatly.
Also - good luck with the enterprise! Your efforts sound very ambitious for sure, but ambition is a good thing in principle. I hope you'll keep all of us updated on progress through your website and perhaps also a post now again here on the forum.

 

[Light Lens Lab]

Hi! I was the said person that visited Robert in Rochester last weekend, we had a good talk regarding film production and more, with my aim to continue this conversation with Robert long term.

We firmly believe in speaking with our results, with our track records being delivered once it is promised. Please stay tuned for updates.

The black and white film will be first... and another film in 2025....

 

[Light Lens Lab]

Welcome aboard! It's great to have you here on the forum and I hope you'll be willing to share some insights with the curious members of this forum as well. We'd all appreciate it greatly.
Also - good luck with the enterprise! Your efforts sound very ambitious for sure, but ambition is a good thing in principle. I hope you'll keep all of us updated on progress through your website and perhaps also a post now again here on the forum.

Thank you! What I can say for now is that we do have a lineup on what we will be releasing for the next couple of years, on lenses and also our film project. The reason for the new film name is that we want to have a fresh start to differentiate with our Optical lens project.

One more thing I will need to clarify - No, we did not partner with Lucky Film or have any relationships with other film manufacturers. Coming from Light Lens Lab we are known to not partnered or sourced from any third party manufacturers.

 

[Richard Man]

I think one thing that a lot of "westerners" do not realize is how deep the pocketbooks some of the Chinese investors have, and how much is made there so they have access to a lot of basic building blocks and talents. The cost of living is still very much below US standards, so money can go a long way there. Not that every one is rich or anything.

 

[MattKing]

I wish them the best.
But quoting from an extremely reliable source:
"It is one thing to create flat silver halide grains and totally another thing to assemble them into a multi-layer film that can be produced with virtually zero deviation in widthwise and lengthwise directions...a.k.a. uniformity. If you can do that, can you wind and finish that coated film without enducing pressure sensitization?"

 

[Don_ih]

quoting from an extremely reliable source

Well, they are not me, you, nor your reliable source. None of us knows what they're capable of. And, assuming they are willing to put in the effort and money, there's no reason why they couldn't succeed. More companies than Kodak and Agfa successfully made film over the past 100 years. There's no value in all this nay-saying.

If they're setting out to make photographic film, they probably already know the many difficulties - probably far better than a group of people who have never even thought to do it.

 

[Film-Niko]

I wish them the best.
But quoting from an extremely reliable source:
"It is one thing to create flat silver halide grains and totally another thing to assemble them into a multi-layer film that can be produced with virtually zero deviation in widthwise and lengthwise directions...a.k.a. uniformity. If you can do that, can you wind and finish that coated film without enducing pressure sensitization?"

Exactly.
Those who are producing film daily in excellent quality for decades know what they are talking about. They know all about the involved chemistry, physics, mechanical engineering and needed finances.
If high-quality film production would not be so very difficult and challenging as it is in reality, then
- much more film manufacturers would have survived (especially some of the smaller ones like Fotokemika, Forte, Ilford Imaging Switzerland, Shanghai)
- we already would have more successful film start-ups
- we would have seen much faster progress with the active film-revival companies like Polaroid, Adox, Film Ferrania, InovisCoat
- we would have seen much less problems with these companies (InovisCoat had two insolvencies since their start in 2008; FilmoTec one insolvency, Film Ferrania had several interruptions)
- Lucky would have re-entered the market much earlier.

 

[MattKing]

Well, they are not me, you, nor your reliable source. None of us knows what they're capable of. And, assuming they are willing to put in the effort and money, there's no reason why they couldn't succeed. More companies than Kodak and Agfa successfully made film over the past 100 years. There's no value in all this nay-saying.

If they're setting out to make photographic film, they probably already know the many difficulties - probably far better than a group of people who have never even thought to do it.

That is why I began my post the way I did - because I do wish them well.
The quotation's purpose was to highlight some of the difficulties, and was directed more at those who don't realize the complexity and difficulty of the challenges, and therefore don't give them the weight they deserve, rather than to those who hope for novel and practical solutions for them.

 

[Harry Callahan]

Such sanctimonious self congratulation for being so astute and prescient is one of the worst things about this forum. No one can say anything without someone chiming in the grandiose wisdom of the oracles with a sturdy "I know better than thou."

There's an appropriate expression to be said to such people.

I won't say it here.

I am sorry but Film-Niko has been arguing reasonable so far. He is taking quite some time, giving a lot of good points and reasonable explanations. He is providing insight and expert knowledge.

But you`re wiping it all away, taking it for know-it-all-attitude or schoolmastery.
You can do so all day, but it does not apply.

Niko is right, if film production was that easy and cheap, film would not have suffered as it did the last 20 years. There would be do-it-yourself-kits for Kodachrome Film for 9.95$ - and everybody was mixing emulsions and coating film as a hobby at home.
Producing film is very difficult, some of the process can be seen as nano-technology - and that`s what Ferrania had registered their company when they came back 2014. As a nano-technology company, because layers of (color-)film are that thin that you can get your film factory registered as a nano-company nowadays.

You can take it easy, Film-Niko is not smartXXXing around, it`s all correct, it`s all good.

 

[Harry Callahan]

{removed post}

Well, for example the thing that happened during the journey of Ferrania.
At the beginning a lot of people were exited, but the longer it took and the more obstacles occurred the more people lost it and turned grim. They got convinced that they suffered a fraud, that the founders only were in to steal their money - and the money the italian government provided - and they started to hate Ferrania and to scold on the internet - for years.
Some do so for a decade now - because they were not aware how difficult film production is/can be.

I see Film-Niko trying to prevent such a thing to happen again. If they make it, it doesn`t matter that Niko is warning - if they don`t make it we may end up with quite some being grim for a long time - if Niko hadn`t been warning.

Niko is doing something here.

 

[Peter Schrager]

I sincerely wish light lens lab success
We can only appreciate their efforts to do this project. It takes start a up with imagination to create markets. I really wanted to try p33 but its nowhere to be found...
Good luck on the project!!

 

[koraks]

Moderator note: some posts were removed and one person has been ejected from this thread. Keep it polite and constructive. This goes for ALL involved.

I see Film-Niko trying to prevent such a thing to happen again.

I'm also reminded of other incidents where manufacturers or retailers were flamed on this forum. I'd like them to be able to participate. I think the point of criticism/skepticism @Film-Niko wanted to make has received ample attention (3 pages of it, in fact). Unless new arguments emerge, let's leave that tangent for what it is.

 

[Crysist]

Thank you! What I can say for now is that we do have a lineup on what we will be releasing for the next couple of years, on lenses and also our film project. The reason for the new film name is that we want to have a fresh start to differentiate with our Optical lens project.

One more thing I will need to clarify - No, we did not partner with Lucky Film or have any relationships with other film manufacturers. Coming from Light Lens Lab we are known to not partnered or sourced from any third party manufacturers.

I think the way you've been very successful with lens manufacturing, which itself isn't too trivial, at least shows you're able to realize many ambitions! I don't know how large-scale emulsion-making then putting it on film compares to some of the rather ambitious stuff people accomplish with hand-coated plates... except producing it continuously as is necessary for making rolls of film... but I'm curious what can be accomplished for a new player at least in terms of B&W emulsions? The grain structure, sensitizers, layering, etc.

Also, regarding no third party manufacturers, how do you do lens production then? I thought most new companies who are able to make custom lenses are making use of some large lens manufacturer and putting in minimum orders to get all the elements produced. Not sure about making the barrels, mounts, doing the assembly, etc though, that's even more to handle! In either case, it was so impressive what you've accomplished!

 

[mshchem]

I suspect that this is as difficult of an undertaking as building a jet airliner. To accomplish what Kodak and Fujifilm can do, and be competitive, especially with color films, instant films....well best of luck, this would be an amazing accomplishment.

 

[Monomer]

Just saw that LLL actually confirmed in the comments that they’ll be producing black-and-white peel-apart film in the second half of the year!
No matter what, I’m choosing to trust Robert Shanebrook’s judgment. If he believes in this project.

 

[mshchem]

Proper peel apart black and white film would be a wonderful thing.

 

[koraks]

I don't know how large-scale emulsion-making then putting it on film compares to some of the rather ambitious stuff people accomplish with hand-coated plates

Products like glass plates as made by people like Jason Lane are stone-age technology compared to film-coating at an industrial scale. The processes are basically incomparable. Btw, this is also true for lens and optical assembly manufacturing; such processes and the required knowledge and competences are incomparable to those involved in film manufacturing. The similarities are only at a very high level of abstraction - so high, in fact, that the practical implications are very limited.

I’m choosing to trust Robert Shanebrook’s judgment

What judgement has @laser passed on this? What did he actually say, and what aspects of the LLL business plan has he commented on? Just trying to get past the point of "some guy said that some guy said."

they’ll be producing black-and-white peel-apart film in the second half of the year!

Well, no lack of ambitions, that's for sure. Let's see a regular, commercially viable B&W film first; then take it from there. The step from a lab-coated engineering sample to a production item is already a very big one and along the way, there tend to be many, many unanticipated issues that pop up and need to be resolved. That tends to be a long and arduous process and it invariably goes a lot slower than planned. Industrialization always looks a lot simpler at the front end than when looking back on it!

 

[Lachlan Young]

B&W peel apart (if Type-55 alike) is relatively straightforward - it's mostly assembly rather than coating - the biggest technical challenges are getting pods that spread evenly and making the clip. However, others have tried and failed to make a sustainable business of it (there may have been other reasons beyond that). It's certainly more achievable (if you have manufacturing resources available) than a colour film. If they are going to do Type-55/ peel apart, I think they should also consider doing quickload/ readyload type packages of sheet film too.

 

[Crysist]

Products like glass plates as made by people like Jason Lane are stone-age technology compared to film-coating at an industrial scale. The processes are basically incomparable. Btw, this is also true for lens and optical assembly manufacturing; such processes and the required knowledge and competences are incomparable to those involved in film manufacturing. The similarities are only at a very high level of abstraction - so high, in fact, that the practical implications are very limited.

Ah, right, I was just looking for some point of comparison, in terms of what "scale" they can accomplish based on what they've said. There are a number of small companies that have spun up manufacturing for photographic lenses, part of which can be offloaded to a third-party, but at the very least making the lens barrels in-house is doable. Lens rehousing for cinema lenses, for example, requires that infrastructure. However, since LLL say they use no third-parties, I imagine they are doing manufacturing of the optics in-house, which seem pretty impressive by comparison to just lens barrels and mechanics and assembly, no? Just those things alone are impressive too. Again, even as you mention, that is very different from manufacturing film, but in that area LLL does seems to have proven themselves very advanced!

So, I haven't heard of people making photographic film as a startup or as hobbyists, so glass/tin plates vs film is another matter, but the thing about making emulsions alone is a jumping-off point. What separates the simplest B&W films sold now to the most complex amateur emulsions? Quality control? Arcane sensitizers?

I imagine it still isn't as simple as "passable emulsion + acquired film coating infrastructure = new film business"?