Little information about repairing electronic cameras

[Andreas Thaler]

To troubleshoot the boards, the underside would need to be visible, yet, they would need to be hooked up to all the potentiometers and switches in the camera body.

Sometimes I think that the engineers used a good part of their intelligence to make their jobs as difficult as possible for entire generations of repairmen

 

[4season]

Much can be repaired if you are willing to invest the time, but it may not be financially rewarding.

The transition from mechanical to electronic cameras was sometimes awkward, and while I like the Minolta X700's features, and extensive use of flexible PCB and SMD, it's kind of a rat's nest of individually soldered wires.

 

[Andreas Thaler]

Much can be repaired if you are willing to invest the time, but it may not be financially rewarding.

I do this purely for my pleasure, which doesn't mean it's easy work

 

[wiltw]

Sometimes I think that the engineers used a good part of their intelligence to make their jobs as difficult as possible for entire generations of repairmen

Certainly true of modern automobiles...the modern engine compartment so packed that one needs to remove and reinstall a half dozen unrelated things to get at the one thing that needs replacement!
The camera is somewhat analogous in its need to cram so much stuff into a space that does not grow to accommodate the contents...so the compact FF SLR blossomed in size into the godzilla dSLR, and we had to get rid of the reflex mirror to shrink the body in mirrorless.

 

[Andreas Thaler]

I worked for a repair tech who was very knowledgeable about these kinds of circuits. He had started in the '70s so pretty much 'grew up' on the kind of cameras you are looking at. From what I saw of his work, he would go into old circuitry if the solution was simple. He could troubleshoot bad capacitors, pots, etc. And if the circuit allows for simple repairs, he could do them, Swap out components from donor bodies. Jump around bad continuity, etc. But the bar was low- simple or it was either a plug and play/pray of a whole circuit or tell the customer that the camera was unrepairable. I don't think he was really tracing circuits out. Just grabbing the obvious issues if need be, using factory manual troubleshooting keys, etc. And most of those factory manuals will, as people have been saying, often end with 'if a, install new X, thank you good bye.

And this was someone who did understand these circuits and knew how to deal with multilayer boards, etc. As people have been saying, you may be expecting more detailed repair work than was the norm in the past.

On the documentation front, I remember that he had a disk full full full of factory camera manuals. So the material has been digitized (well, jpegs of manual pages, not true digital searchable documents). You should keep asking old repair techs how to get your hands on this library. I imagine lots of hard disks have been sent to the dump already holding this stuff.

Thank you very much, this provides orientation and prevents from setting unrealistic goals when repairing.

 

[Andreas Thaler]

… so the compact FF SLR blossomed in size into the godzilla dSLR, and we had to get rid of the reflex mirror to shrink the body in mirrorless.

Of course it is impressive if you try to understand the circuitry of a current camera. But there's nothing left that requires you to be skilled at repairing things. Just replacing highly integrated modules. And don't ruin the case when you open it. But otherwise?

 

[Dirb9]

I think the electro-mechanical aspect of electronic camera repairs might be part of it. I think another aspect might be that the popular image of 'film cameras' are all mechanical cameras, the most popular/visible cameras right now are things like Rolleiflexes, Leica M3s and Hasseblads. Cameras from Canon, Nikon, Minolta, and Pentax, despite being far more popular in the 80s and 90s than any of those, are just not desirable (see the many AF SLRs that can be found for under $50); therefore the cost and time investment to repair them simply isn't worth the effort. The perspective of 'electronic=disposable' isn't helped by the fact that many camera repair techs are aging, and are most familiar with odler cameras, to the point where I've encountered otherwise highly experienced technicians who refuse to learn electronic diagnosis and repairs, beyond simple analog/discrete circuits.

As long as someone is willing to dedicate time and resources, most any electronics could be repaired. The most advanced film cameras use late 90s tech at best, which is well within the reach of many home engineers. There is are very vibrant retro-computing and retro-gaming communities that regularly make repairs and in fact introduce new and replica components; as an example you can buy an brand new replacement Commodore 64 main board if you want.

I'm aware of two fairly ambitious electronic camera projects: The main SX70 computer board has been reverse engineered by at least a few different people, and is available completely open source: https://opensx70.com/about/
Another is a complete reverse engineering of the original Pentax Electro-Spotmatic/ES, which was probably the most advanced electronic camera when it was introduced:

 

[Andreas Thaler]

Another is a complete reverse engineering of the original Pentax Electro-Spotmatic/ES, which was probably the most advanced electronic camera when it was introduced:

Amazing!

 

[ic-racer]

Another issue with the last generation of automatic film cameras is the need for dedicated software. This is further confounded by the likely need to boot into legacy computer hardware.

I suspect these service floppy disks are not available as the independent Nikon service facilities will still service these cameras. I'd say that is a good thing for now.

 

[ic-racer]

 

[ic-racer]

Some good news for Nikon's most recent cameras is that the service manuals are very detailed in how to re-assemble the camera. Even to the point of including color pictures:

 

[vandergus]

I'm just a hobbyist but I have some experience repairing both electronic cameras (Pentax ZX/MZ) and mechanical cameras (Pentax MX, K1000) and a few in between (Pentax ME Super). Some thoughts...

I don't think that electronic cameras are any more difficult to disassemble/reassemble than mechanical cameras. The Pentax MZ's have multiple flex circuits that have to be de-soldered but I don't find it that difficult, and I'm no wizard with a soldering iron. In some ways it's even easier. Where mechanical systems may need to be carefully aligned or coupled, electronic systems often just need a wired connection. They are plug-n-play, so to speak.

The real difficulty with electronic cameras is troubleshooting. Mechanical cameras are relatively easy to investigate because you can physically see what is happening, no special tools required. You can see a latch that is stuck, or a stripped gear or a missing spring. Electronics require specialized tools (DMM's and oscilloscopes at a minimum) to diagnose what is wrong with an electronic circuit.

But more importantly, with a mechanical camera, it is much easier to work on component parts of the system. If a mechanical shutter is jammed, I can disassemble the camera and actuate the shutter until I see the problem. I can even dial in curtain speeds and slit widths without reassembling. If an electronic shutter is jammed, I can disassemble the camera but I can't fire the shutter without special tools. In the past, camera companies would supply techs with the proprietary tools to do this (like what ic-racer posted), but they aren't really available any more. All you can do is clean the shutter, then reassemble the entire camera and hope it works. Same is true for a lot of the other electronic functions of the camera.

 

[Andreas Thaler]

Another issue with the last generation of automatic film cameras is the need for dedicated software. This is further confounded by the likely need to boot into legacy computer hardware.

I suspect these service floppy disks are not available as the independent Nikon service facilities will still service these cameras. I'd say that is a good thing for now.

View attachment 352782

Can floppy disk drives still be managed by current versions of Windows? Or did the manufacturers use other operating systems?

 

[Andreas Thaler]

But more importantly, with a mechanical camera, it is much easier to work on component parts of the system. If a mechanical shutter is jammed, I can disassemble the camera and actuate the shutter until I see the problem. I can even dial in curtain speeds and slit widths without reassembling. If an electronic shutter is jammed, I can disassemble the camera but I can't fire the shutter without special tools. In the past, camera companies would supply techs with the proprietary tools to do this (like what ic-racer posted), but they aren't really available any more. All you can do is clean the shutter, then reassemble the entire camera and hope it works. Same is true for a lot of the other electronic functions of the camera.

Does this also apply to high-performance shutters like the Copal S?

I read that this complex technology was treated by the workshops like electronic modules. So not a repair, but a complete replacement.

 

[koraks]

Can floppy disk drives still be managed by current versions of Windows?

Yes.

 

[reddesert]

If we compare a camera with electronics made in 1978 to (for example) a stereo amplifier or guitar amplifier made in 1978, the camera electronics have a much more miniaturized design that is harder to work on. Although people get stressed out about the undocumented, complicated, and unreplaceable parts (eg the microcontroller that might exist in a camera or amplifier), IME those are rarely the parts that fail. For a few cameras there are known failure points that are discussed on the web, for example the capacitor that goes bad in some Minoltas (as posted by the OP in another thread), and a known replacement procedure.

But IME with 1970s/80s electronic circuits - speaking partly about amplifiers and such - typical trouble points are dirty/failed switches, bad solder joints (especially when there is temperature cycling), dirty potentiometers, the occasional bad capacitor or blown amplifier output transistor. Some of these are replaceable as discrete units, especially in an amplifier or other large electronic item, because they are fairly standard electronic components, and also easy to access. The corresponding parts in a 1970s/80s camera are sometimes standard components (eg capacitors), sometimes not (resistive tracks for light meters). There may also be cultural differences between camera repair people and electronics/sound repair people in their willingness to deal with electronics, as suggested above. Finally, I think you can also find more information out there about repairing a vintage tube amp or guitar amp because some of them are still high-value, so pro or hobby repairs are more clearly worth the effort.

 

[Andreas Thaler]

Although people get stressed out about the undocumented, complicated, and unreplaceable parts (eg the microcontroller that might exist in a camera or amplifier), IME those are rarely the parts that fail. For a few cameras there are known failure points that are discussed on the web, for example the capacitor that goes bad in some Minoltas (as posted by the OP in another thread), and a known replacement procedure.

I think this is the key to not giving up when you have problems with the electronics of the Minolta X cameras. Because ICs can only be unsoldered as spare parts from abandoned Minoltas, which is not easy due to their size and neighboring components. The soldering is then added.

 

[Chan Tran]

Can floppy disk drives still be managed by current versions of Windows? Or did the manufacturers use other operating systems?

If I can get a copy of the program I can get a PC to run it. Be it's on floppy drive running DOS or Windows 95 etc... I can get it to run.

 

[4season]

I think this is the key to not giving up when you have problems with the electronics of the Minolta X cameras. Because ICs can only be unsoldered as spare parts from abandoned Minoltas, which is not easy due to their size and neighboring components. The soldering is then added.

ChipQuik solder can be very helpful in some situations: It's a special bismuth alloy which remains molten long enough that parts can simply be lifted away without damage.

 

[Andreas Thaler]

ChipQuik solder can be very helpful in some situations: It's a special bismuth alloy which remains molten long enough that parts can simply be lifted away without damage.

Thanks for the tip!

So far I have worked with "soldering honey".

 

[koraks]

The common method of (de)soldering such packages is to use a hot air soldering station. They're quite affordable these days. Works for small lead-less packages as well (QFN).

 

[Andreas Thaler]

The common method of (de)soldering such packages is to use a hot air soldering station. They're quite affordable these days. Works for small lead-less packages as well (QFN).

I worked with a hot air soldering station, but I still couldn't manage to leave the solder pads undamaged.

I worked at 380 degrees Celsius (= 716 degrees Fahrenheit) and ran the hot air nozzle in slow circular movements over the IC. It took about 20 seconds for the IC to detach.

Using the Dremel Versatip (butane gas torch) made it quicker, but I was concerned that it would put too much power on the IC.

What would be the guidelines for the temperature setting and application time?

 

[koraks]

What would be the guidelines for the temperature setting and application time?

Depends. If it takes too long, turn up heat. Depends a lot on substrate, mass of the IC, surface area, solder used etc. etc. Of course try and use as little heat as possible.
Btw, before I had the hot air thing I used a butane lighter many times. Never damaged the internals of any component with it. But the hot air station foesn scorch the package, and there's less risk of pads lifting. It's been a while since I damages any pads or traces; it only tends to happen with lots and lots of rework and mostly with the soldering iron, and never the hot air station.

 

[Andreas Thaler]

Depends. If it takes too long, turn up heat. Depends a lot on substrate, mass of the IC, surface area, solder used etc. etc. Of course try and use as little heat as possible.
Btw, before I had the hot air thing I used a butane lighter many times. Never damaged the internals of any component with it. But the hot air station foesn scorch the package, and there's less risk of pads lifting. It's been a while since I damages any pads or traces; it only tends to happen with lots and lots of rework and mostly with the soldering iron, and never the hot air station.

Thanks!

I still have two boards from abandoned X-700s to practice with.

 

[koraks]

Sounds good. It's pretty hard to damage anything with those hot air stations. The only doubts I have is about those old flex PCB's which may not be as tough as the ones in use today. That's where some experimentation would surely help!