Mamiya 645 Pro - Erratic Winding Issues

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Danno1985

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Hey guys/gals! A few months back I picked up a used Mamiya 645 Pro system. It probably wouldn't have been my first choice as a jump into medium format, but it looked great and well cared-for, and the seller assured me it was in great working condition. It's one of those things - took a chance on an online used camera; you live, you learn - I've been lucky before, but next time for used gear I'll stick with something from a reputable dealer.

Anyways, a little background - I do have some experience with 120. I shot an older Mamiya 645 as well as a Yashica TLR in high school darkroom class, but just for a refresher, I checked the manual to make sure I was loading the film correctly. For the first roll, I had the power winder installed. Everything seemed ok until about frame 4, after which the winder kept running until I could hear the roll flapping around in the back. Did a little digging online, came to the conclusion it was probably a worn tire on one of the rollers in the insert, so I picked up a couple more inserts from KEH. Same issue. I also figured I'd remove the power winder to take one variable out of the equation. Same story with the manual winder - wound film to frame one, cool - frames 1-3 seemed normal, but after frame 3 it kept winding. Here's the thing, if I shoot/wind with the back open, the shutter seems to work and the winder advances normally. If I close the back with a spool in the bottom of the insert, it's back to the erratic winding thing where it works up the frame 3-5 and then just goes until the roll is wound completely. Anyone have any clues? I really like the feel of this system and want to make it work but man, I am frustrated and sick of wasting film or throwing more parts at it and ready to throw in the towel. Because everything seems to work smoothly while the back is open, I'm having a tough time trying to wrap my head around what part of the equation changes when the door is closed and there's film in the back. Admittedly this thing is a bit more complex mechanically than my Canon F-1 and Ftb, so if it sounds as though I've made any obvious noob mistakes, be gentle on me! Haha. Any help would be appreciated - I'm doing some backpacking around Colorado later this month and was really hoping to have a MF SLR for the trip.
 

MattKing

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Welcome to APUG.

It may be the back, rather than the camera, or the interface between the back, the insert and the camera.

How is the multiple exposure lever set?
 
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Danno1985

Danno1985

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Welcome to APUG.

It may be the back, rather than the camera, or the interface between the back, the insert and the camera.

How is the multiple exposure lever set?

Multiple exposure lever is set to the white square (normal operation). If I set it to multi, the shutter will cock and fire normally. I imagine there's a way to hack it by shooting in Multi, then switching to normal, winding the film a certain amount, then switching back to multi to cock the shutter, but man... I'm not really into that. I'd be nice if it just, you know... worked. Like my 35mm SLRs. I've thought about picking up another back - I see KEH has an "EX" one at $79 and a "BGN" one for a bit less. I'm a little hesitant to toss $80 or $50 more at it though. What makes you think it's the back? Are there springs inside the back that keep the film aligned that might be bent/fatigued out of shape, or do you think it's an issue of the gears connecting the back and the camera body? Like I said, everything seems to work smoothly when the back is open, so it seems like the connections between back and body are working, but again - I'm far from familiar with the intricacies of this system.
 

MattKing

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My guess is that it is a problem with the film counter - which is in the back.
 
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Danno1985

Danno1985

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My guess is that it is a problem with the film counter - which is in the back.

Oh... for some reason I did not think of that. I guess I can check to see if the frame counter gear appears to be turning smoothly, but there's probably no way to really see how it behaves while under load since having the back open doesn't simulate this. Maybe I will take that chance on another back...
 
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Danno1985

Danno1985

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Ok, a little update, I removed the back, checked out the gears and noticed the film counter gear was really loose and wobbling on the spindle. I tightened it up, and it seems to be spinning a little more predictably on the axis. Is there a really solid way you can recommend for simulating a roll of film in the back? I'm excited to see if this fixed the issue, but am still a little gun-shy about trying another roll of film.
 

MattKing

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Use the backing paper from an already exposed roll of film.

You can use it over and over as long as you roll it back on to a "feed" spool.
 

HiHoSilver

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As usual, generous & gracious help, Matt. Bravo.
 
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Danno1985

Danno1985

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OK guys, I've tried the backing paper thing a couple times. Even after tightening the gear something is still not right, and it's just winding through the whole roll instantly. I guess I'm going to try my luck on a new back from KEH as a last ditch thing before I put this thing up for sale as-is.
 

Sirius Glass

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Welcome to APUG

Send it KEH for repair and be done with it.
 
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Danno1985

Danno1985

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Man... I would, but their flat rate for medium format bodies would buy a whole lot of Portra 400 for my Canon FD system. I don't really have that kind of sentimental attachment to this thing to throw that kind of dough at it right now; if anything, it's bordering on antipathy at this point. Haha. I'll let you guys know how the back goes.
 

Kirks518

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I had a similar issue with an M645, and I think Matt is correct, the frame counter is probably not resetting back to zero when you open/close the back. On the m645, I would reach inside and spin the wheel back to zero, and it worked fine. If I would forget to so that, it would think it's on frame 8 (in my case it would go about half the way to zero, but not all the way).

When you first load the film, does it crank freely until the first frame is reached? Or does it crack maybe once or not at all, thinking it's on a frame already? See if you can spin one of the gears in the back to make sure it's resetting to zero.
 
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Danno1985

Danno1985

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Hey y'all, just wanted to follow up. I received the new (used EXC) back from KEH today. I tried the backing paper "test roll" and wow - everything seems to be working so smoothly! I think I'm feeling confident enough to put some film back in this camera. Thanks for the help everyone!
 

MattKing

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Glad it worked out!
 
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