Medium format technical / view camera

[pkr1979]

Thanks!

 

[ic-racer]

Im mainly interested in the VH without the rangefinder, so infinity stops arent really my concern - it was more about how well the 65/75mm works with movements with the VH, and how much of an issue the bed would be.

With respect to Only Horseman lenses, the 75 is very sharp but sometimes limited in movement, so the VH camera shouldn’t be an issue.
With respect to the 65, the VH camera body and lens are well suited to each other. In many situations the lens and camera reach limits together.

 

[pkr1979]

With respect to the 65, the VH camera body and lens are well suited to each other. In many situations the lens and camera reach limits together.

In a flat lensboard or a recessed one?

 

[ags2mikon]

In recessed boards. Because the VH and VH-R are thicker you need the new style boards. Other wise the front standard is partially off the bed rails and also won't rise with fouling the camera body. This is not a problem for the 985 because the body is thinner with out the revolving back. When you use the newer recessed boards on a 985 you have even more freedom of movement.

 

[pkr1979]

Thanks!

 

[Chuck1]

As an aside, the "arms" of the 980 block the shift with the 75 and 65mm lenses. I have aftermarket, stainless steel arms which are like the arms of the 985 camera. Will sell them to 980 owners for $5.00 + cost of shipping. PM me.
Also have extra infinity stops.

I've never heard of these could you post a photo please?
Any idea who made them?

 

[abruzzi]

Just a quick comment--the Horseman is a great system, and based on discussion it seems likely its what you have settled on. It also has the benefit that is is really the one of the most affordable (the Cambo SC-1 is usually a bit cheaper for the camera, but a little harder to find all the accessories. It also doesn't pack up into a small space nearly as well.)

But I also wanted to make a quick plug for the more expensive option--the Arca-Swiss F-Classic 6x9. These are usually quite a bit more expensive, but they are uncommon enough that used pricing isn't all that consistent. Mine was $2500, but that included all the pieces to make it a 4x5 as well, including 2 bellows fir 4x5 and 2 bellows for 6x9. I also recently saw one selling for about $1k. That got snapped up pretty quickly.

If you can find a reasonable deal on a F-classic or F-Metric 6x9 Arca Swiss they can be one heck of a camera. (I can't comment on the Oschwald era cameras, but I've seen those in 6x9 selling for as low as $600.) With the full bag bellows they can focus a 47mm lens on a flat lens board and still be able to do movements. I have the leather semi bag bellows (I don't know what they're actually called--but have big leather pleats) and have no issues with my Mamiya 50mm ƒ6.3, and with a recessed lens board you could easily gain 15mm to focus a 35mm lens. The rail and carriers are basically the same as what they use for 6x9 up to 8x10. With the 8x10 its maybe a little underspecced, but for 6x9 it is extremely rigid. All movement lock very well with no worry, and I personally much prefer working with a monorail than I do with a technical style camera. Obviously its not hand-holdable and has no shortcuts like a range finder, but the 6x9 ground glass has buillt in fesnel that is bright enough for me to focus in bright sunlight without a hood or dark cloth. Its also great with a digital back if you are considering that direction.

 

[Besk]

I've never heard of these could you post a photo please?
Any idea who made them?

Fifteen or more years ago my friend, Scott Bonnett, had these made up. I have them on my 980.

 

[pkr1979]

Just a quick comment--the Horseman is a great system, and based on discussion it seems likely its what you have settled on. It also has the benefit that is is really the one of the most affordable (the Cambo SC-1 is usually a bit cheaper for the camera, but a little harder to find all the accessories. It also doesn't pack up into a small space nearly as well.)

But I also wanted to make a quick plug for the more expensive option--the Arca-Swiss F-Classic 6x9. These are usually quite a bit more expensive, but they are uncommon enough that used pricing isn't all that consistent. Mine was $2500, but that included all the pieces to make it a 4x5 as well, including 2 bellows fir 4x5 and 2 bellows for 6x9. I also recently saw one selling for about $1k. That got snapped up pretty quickly.

If you can find a reasonable deal on a F-classic or F-Metric 6x9 Arca Swiss they can be one heck of a camera. (I can't comment on the Oschwald era cameras, but I've seen those in 6x9 selling for as low as $600.) With the full bag bellows they can focus a 47mm lens on a flat lens board and still be able to do movements. I have the leather semi bag bellows (I don't know what they're actually called--but have big leather pleats) and have no issues with my Mamiya 50mm ƒ6.3, and with a recessed lens board you could easily gain 15mm to focus a 35mm lens. The rail and carriers are basically the same as what they use for 6x9 up to 8x10. With the 8x10 its maybe a little underspecced, but for 6x9 it is extremely rigid. All movement lock very well with no worry, and I personally much prefer working with a monorail than I do with a technical style camera. Obviously its not hand-holdable and has no shortcuts like a range finder, but the 6x9 ground glass has buillt in fesnel that is bright enough for me to focus in bright sunlight without a hood or dark cloth. Its also great with a digital back if you are considering that direction.

If money wasnt an issue Id go for the Arca Swiss - I also fint monorail cameras more convenient when shooting. Do you have any idea if you can get 6x7 backs for the Arca Swiss?

 

[Dan Fromm]

If money wasnt an issue Id go for the Arca Swiss - I also fint monorail cameras more convenient when shooting. Do you have any idea if you can get 6x7 backs for the Arca Swiss?

In the worst case, there are 6x7 insertion type roll holders. Cambo/Calumet, for example, and Toyo, which may be too thick for the AS back.

And don't write off the Cambo SC-1. I have 2 1/2 of them. They use the same boards and bellows as newer 2x3 Cambos. One thing to beware of. The bail backs accept insertion type film holders, sheet and roll. The "International backs," of which there are at least 3 different versions, accept only Graflok/International roll holders, won't take insertion types.

 

[abruzzi]

If money wasnt an issue Id go for the Arca Swiss - I also fint monorail cameras more convenient when shooting. Do you have any idea if you can get 6x7 backs for the Arca Swiss?

The A-S uses 2x3 Graflok on the back, so it can take a number of different backs. I use Horseman backs (on my A-S, VH, VH-R, Convertible, and Galvin.) and they’re available in 6x7 as well as 6x9 (maybe 6x6 as well?). In fact one of my Horseman 6x9 backs is rebranded as an Arca Swiss back. So, yes 6x7 is definitely doable.

 

[ags2mikon]

Dan, Isn't the Cambo SC-1 a 4x5 camera? I think I have one or 2 of them now. 1X1 inch mono rail?

 

[abruzzi]

SC-1 is 6x9 and SC-2 is 4x5, but the two share a number of design features and parts. Same 1 inch square rail, same rubber friction drive for focusing, and I believe the carriers are the same.

 

[pkr1979]

The A-S uses 2x3 Graflok on the back, so it can take a number of different backs. I use Horseman backs (on my A-S, VH, VH-R, Convertible, and Galvin.) and they’re available in 6x7 as well as 6x9 (maybe 6x6 as well?). In fact one of my Horseman 6x9 backs is rebranded as an Arca Swiss back. So, yes 6x7 is definitely doable.

Thanks!

 

[pkr1979]

And don't write off the Cambo SC-1. I have 2 1/2 of them. They use the same boards and bellows as newer 2x3 Cambos. One thing to beware of. The bail backs accept insertion type film holders, sheet and roll. The "International backs," of which there are at least 3 different versions, accept only Graflok/International roll holders, won't take insertion types.

Im not entirely sure what this means - does this mean I can use Horseman 6x7 backs on the Cambo SC-1?

 

[Dan Fromm]

Im not entirely sure what this means - does this mean I can use Horseman 6x7 backs on the Cambo SC-1?

I'm not sure. I've seen two flavors on Horseman roll holders. I'm not sure the old ones fit Graflok backs. The new ones do.

https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/g1165937428?conversionType=YahooAuction_DirectSearch New type at the bottom, the other 2 are old type.

This https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/t1164467382 is a different old type.

By the way, you and many others refer to roll holders as "backs." This is incorrect and confusing.

 

[abruzzi]

I'm not sure. I've seen two flavors on Horseman roll holders. I'm not sure the old ones fit Graflok backs. The new ones do.

https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/g1165937428?conversionType=YahooAuction_DirectSearch New type at the bottom, the other 2 are old type.

This https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/t1164467382 is a different old type.

By the way, you and many others refer to roll holders as "backs." This is incorrect and confusing.

I have one of the old type and the mount is the same so it should work fine on the Cambo back. The occasional challenge with the old design is the advance lever sticks way up and can interfere parts on the camera. Like on the Horseman Convertible the viewfinder (the sports finder style) swings out and the advance interferes with that, so the workaround is to mount is upside down (I think that’s the original intent for that camera.)

 

[Dan Fromm]

I have one of the old type and the mount is the same so it should work fine on the Cambo back. The occasional challenge with the old design is the advance lever sticks way up and can interfere parts on the camera. Like on the Horseman Convertible the viewfinder (the sports finder style) swings out and the advance interferes with that, so the workaround is to mount is upside down (I think that’s the original intent for that camera.)

Thanks for the explanation. I've wondered ...

 

[ags2mikon]

Yes. I have one and it mounts with the lever on the bottom on the 970 also.

 

[Besk]

The old style Horseman holder has an extra light baffle on mounting face. It may not work on any camera other than Horseman. This does not apply to the newer style backs.

 

[pkr1979]

@abruzzi - you have used both the Horseman VH and the Cambo SC-1 - do you have any preference for one or the other? My 8x10 is a Cambo and I have to admit Im not to happy with it - which makes me abit sceptical to the SC-1. But Im open to the fact that there might be situations where its preferable over the VH?

 

[abruzzi]

@abruzzi - you have used both the Horseman VH and the Cambo SC-1 - do you have any preference for one or the other? My 8x10 is a Cambo and I have to admit Im not to happy with it - which makes me abit sceptical to the SC-1. But Im open to the fact that there might be situations where its preferable over the VH?

They are both very well made and relatively easy to use. The Cambo has two issues that make me like it a little less perfect for me. These may or may not be relevant for you.

a) the Cambo doesn’t fold up into a nice compact package. It’s not huge, but one of the reasons I started looking into 6x9 view cameras was to make a smaller and lighter than my 4x5 kit. The Cambo is lighter but takes up as much or more space in a bag than a 4x5 like the Technikarden 45 or Sinar Norma.

b) you have to jump through some hoops to focus wide lenses. A 75mm works normally, but wider than that you need to: 1)disconnect the bellows from the rear standard, 2) rotate the rear standard 180 degrees. 3) move the ground glass to the opposite of the rear standard. Finally, 4) reconnect the bellows. Those steps work, but because of the shape of the Cambo standards, it only works in portrait orientation. If you need landscape, you’ll need to rotate the entire camera.

The Horseman obviously packs up in a smaller form. I have general issues using technical cameras that carry over to the Horseman—the biggest is that movements frequently have more issues due to design. The small 80x80mm lens board potentially limits lenses you can use.

If I was looking for a field camera, I’d go Horseman, if I was looking for a studio camera then the Cambo. Neither are great with wide lenses, but most of the Cambo issues can be worked around.

 

[GG12]

@abruzzi - at one time we were discussing Technikardan 23 as another answer. Any thoughts on that? I also use an Ebony 23, which is good fun. The 23S can deal with a 75mm lens fine (on a recessed board) but is likely not in the OP's price range. The Ebony will take the mini-braflok Horseman backs just fine.

 

[abruzzi]

I like the usage of the TK23S. In usage it’s nicer than the Arca. It’s big drawback is that is doesn’t work with baby-graflock roll film holders. You could use the 2x3 adapt-a-roll, or you can use Linhof’s Rollex or super Rollex roll film backs. Those super Rollex backs are very high quality, but finding good ones is quite difficult, especially if you’re looking for a 6x9 back. I’ve managed to get one working 6x9 back and 2 6x7 backs, but to get there I have about 6 non working backs that the seller didn’t want me to return when I told them it was broken.

I’ve been collecting parts, with the plan to get SK Grimes to modify then to build an adapter for the Horseman roll holders.

On cost, I got my TK23S for under $1k from KEH, but sometimes places ask a lot more than that. One issue I’ve seen online with the TK23 is the silkscreened text on the L frame wears off very easily, so look closely before buying (I haven’t seen this issue with the TK45s.)

 

[Dan Fromm]

@abruzzi - at one time we were discussing Technikardan 23 as another answer. Any thoughts on that? I also use an Ebony 23, which is good fun. The 23S can deal with a 75mm lens fine (on a recessed board) but is likely not in the OP's price range. The Ebony will take the mini-braflok Horseman backs just fine.

PMFJI. Charlie Barringer gave me my first SC-1. He offered me it or a TK. The TK is a nicer camera, packs up more compactly but the SC-1 seemed less flimsy. Also, because its 1" x 1" rail can be replaced with size 1010 80/20 brand T-slotted angle it is a better starting point for constructing a Baby Bertha. So I took the SC-1 and built a Baby Bertha from it and a 2x3 RB Ser. B Graflex SLR. Baby was a disaster, but that's another story. TKs are more expensive than SC-1s.

About packing an SC-1. Charlie used his on a short (10") rail. With the bellows removed and the standards rotated 90 degrees so that the rail was in the same plane as the uprights it all fitted in a standard briefcase.