My PC-512 Borax Developer

[removedacct3]

I'm curious about how much inconvenience people are willing to tolerate. So here are a couple of questions:

Fair and simple questions, but hard to answer.

Never bothered with the original FX-55 version, but only with the Gainer variant for the same reason.

Mocon looked too good to be true, until I read how to prepare it. Sorry, never gave it a try.

I do not think I’m a spoiled brat, but just-in-time mixing of solids is too much of a hassle.

 

[relistan]

Borax availability is not a problem for me either. It is just that I do not like to weigh out and mix solids just before developing film. Toying around with home brew developers is jolly good fun, but when developing film I prefer stock solutions over just-in-time mixing of solids.

You don’t need to mix powder before use. You can mix 5L of the borax part at a time if you want. In the blog post I mix up 1L which is enough for 3-4 35mm films. But it keeps forever without growing anything so you can just do it all at once if that’s easier.

Given all that, I think what you are saying is that your interest in metaborate is the hope that it would allow for a single concentrate. It doesn’t have enough solubility in glycol to make it work. That’s why I was experimenting with a glycol/borax/TEA combination earlier in the thread. When I’m back from some travel, I’ll resume that.

 

[removedacct3]

That’s why I was experimenting with a glycol/borax/TEA combination earlier in the thread. When I’m back from some travel, I’ll resume that.

FWIW, my two favorite developers are both 2-part developers. A single developer solution is not what I was trying to say.

I’ll keep a close eye on your experiments to come.

A big thank you for your efforts so far and safe travels!!

 

[relistan]

FWIW, my two favorite developers are both 2-part developers. A single developer solution is not what I was trying to say.

I’ll keep a close eye on your experiments to come.

A big thank you for your efforts so far and safe travels!!

Hey no worries, thanks for that. I didn't take it personally, I was trying to understand if I might have been missing an important idea.

 

[albada]

Speaking of 2-part developers, I thought about how to make PC-512 Borax in two parts. First, I suspect many people will be reluctant to buy and use glycol, and would prefer that both solutions be aqueous. But that raises the problem of the Fenton reaction. It occurred to me that the Fenton reaction will probably not be a problem if part A is (1) highly concentrated, (2) mixed with distilled or DI water, and (3) stored refrigerated, which should greatly slow down the reaction.

The other problem is that borax has a low solubility limit. However, sodium metaborate (tetrahydrate) has a much higher solubility limit, so if you could reformulate this developer with metaborate, having the same image quality, then the following could be a 2-part concentrate to be mixed 1+5+44:

Part A: (1/50th of working solution. Store in refrigerator.)

Ascorbic acid .............. 24 (need to verify that this is low enough to not precipitate when cooled)​

Phenidone .................. 1​

Sodium metaborate .... ? (make pH of this concentrate 6-7)​

DTPA-5Na .................. 1 (if available. Or TEA and salicylic acid?)​

Distilled/DI water to 200 ml​

Part B: (1/10th of working solution)

Sodium metaborate .... <= 163 (below solubility limit at 0 deg C ensures no precipitation in winter)​

EDTA-2Na ................... 5 (not needed if distilled/DI water is used throughout)​

Water to 1 L​

This article says the Fenton reaction is most efficient in an acidic environment (pH 2.8-3), so we want part A to be neither acidic nor alkaline. Thus, I suggest that part A be neutral or slightly acidic.
Part A would be kept cooled, and can be poured into the working solution when cold (no need to warm it up) because its amount is tiny.
The EDTA in part B is to prevent precipitation with hard water in both the concentrate and working solution.
I think mixing 1+5+44 would be hard for most people to understand, but the following rephrasing is easy to understand: "You want X ml of dev. Add X/50 ml of part A and X/10 ml of part B. Add water to the X mark."

This idea hinges on switching to metaborate, and a prior poster intends to do just that. I think the metaborate option is worth exploring.

Mark

 

[relistan]

Thanks Mark, that’s worth thinking about. Given the size (no space) of my Irish refrigerator I’m not sure about storing things in there but maybe not needed since Ryuji’s developers will keep for months at room temperature. An option to use a water concentrate that doesn’t last as long might be something some people like. I’m traveling for a week but intend to get back to things when I return.

 

[skyer]

In my opinion it's much easier to make a simple glycol solution and store it on a shelf than make a complicated solution and store it in a fridge.
Also, where I live findinding borax is much easier than sodium metobarate. So, personally, I prefer the original relistan's formula much more. It's really a very promising developer!

 

[relistan]

Had a quick business trip to LA and now I'm pretty well set for developer for awhile! Gotta love US prices sometimes—even in expensive California. 1.84kg of borax for about $9. This stuff works perfectly well in this formula. Also brought back 100g of phenidone from Bostick and Sullivan.

 

[John Wiegerink]

Had a quick business trip to LA and now I'm pretty well set for developer for awhile! Gotta love US prices sometimes—even in expensive California. 1.84kg of borax for about $9. This stuff works perfectly well in this formula. Also brought back 100g of phenidone from Bostick and Sullivan.

View attachment 332170

Yes, we are spoiled, and yet we still bitch. I was playing with PC-512 over last weekend and tried the borax version along with the Kodalk(sodium metaborate) version. I didn't have my PH meter, so I just used1/3 less sodium metaborate per volume than borax. Both worked just fine and I will be doing some more work with PC512 now that I have my PH meter at hand. I think I could cut the Kodalk back slightly more, but the negatives from both borax and Kodalk were very close.

 

[albada]

Yes, we are spoiled, and yet we still bitch. I was playing with PC-512 over last weekend and tried the borax version along with the Kodalk(sodium metaborate) version. I didn't have my PH meter, so I just used1/3 less sodium metaborate per volume than borax. Both worked just fine and I will be doing some more work with PC512 now that I have my PH meter at hand. I think I could cut the Kodalk back slightly more, but the negatives from both borax and Kodalk were very close.

John, once you have the amount of Kodalk dialed-in, please post that amount to this thread. Others would be interested. In fact, I suspect the Kodalk could be dissolved into glycol with the other two chemicals.

Mark

 

[Loose Gravel]

I buy propylene glycol, PG, at a large animal feed store: for cows.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I get all my borax and sodium carbonate at the local supermarket laundry aisle. I used to get my sodium hydroxide there, too; last time I looked they didn't have any (I ordered a can from Amazon), but next time I need some I'll try the other grocery chain in the area. Sodium thiosulfate I get from the local hardware store's pool and spa section; sulfuric acid (concentrated!) and hydrochloric acid (don't know offhand what strength, but the label or SDS should say) are available from home improvement stores, along with copper sulfate from the same source (root killer for drains; copper sulfate plus nearly any acid plus non-iodized table salt is one half of a B&W reversal bleach -- clear household ammonia from the cleaning section of the supermarket is the other). Sodium sulfite I had to order, couldn't find any local pool supplies that had that instead of thiosulfate for chlorine reducer). Acetaminophen (paracetamol) supplies the developing agent for Parodinal, and where else would you get instant coffee than a supermarket? Not to mention beer (for Beerenol). Vitamin C can be had in tablets at the supermarket, but I got a bottle of powder at a health supplement store -- should be enough to last decades when used only for Caffenol.

Next time I need propylene glycol, I'll try to remember to buy a gallon (for about what I paid for a quart from Amazon) at Tractor Supply.

 

[John Wiegerink]

John, once you have the amount of Kodalk dialed-in, please post that amount to this thread. Others would be interested. In fact, I suspect the Kodalk could be dissolved into glycol with the other two chemicals.

Mark

Mark,
I won't be able to mix another batch until next weekend, but will report my findings then. I used 14.3g of Kodalk in place of 21.7g of borax. I think the total amount of Kodalk will probably end up being around 11-12g, but won't know for sure until I mix and PH test it. With that small amount of Kodalk and its ease of getting it into glycol it should be able to go into the 100ml of part "A" making it a one part developer instead of two. That would make it slightly more convenient, at least for me anyway. My first impression of developer so far is positive, and with a little tweaking it will likely get even better.

 

[juan]

Donald, my local Ace Hardware has sodium hydroxide in the section with the drain cleaners.

 

[aparat]

I get all my borax and sodium carbonate at the local supermarket laundry aisle. I used to get my sodium hydroxide there, too; last time I looked they didn't have any (I ordered a can from Amazon), but next time I need some I'll try the other grocery chain in the area. Sodium thiosulfate I get from the local hardware store's pool and spa section; sulfuric acid (concentrated!) and hydrochloric acid (don't know offhand what strength, but the label or SDS should say) are available from home improvement stores, along with copper sulfate from the same source (root killer for drains; copper sulfate plus nearly any acid plus non-iodized table salt is one half of a B&W reversal bleach -- clear household ammonia from the cleaning section of the supermarket is the other). Sodium sulfite I had to order, couldn't find any local pool supplies that had that instead of thiosulfate for chlorine reducer). Acetaminophen (paracetamol) supplies the developing agent for Parodinal, and where else would you get instant coffee than a supermarket? Not to mention beer (for Beerenol). Vitamin C can be had in tablets at the supermarket, but I got a bottle of powder at a health supplement store -- should be enough to last decades when used only for Caffenol.

Next time I need propylene glycol, I'll try to remember to buy a gallon (for about what I paid for a quart from Amazon) at Tractor Supply.

What is the common or brand name for sodium carbonate at the grocery store? I need to buy another batch for D-72.

 

[aparat]

Arm & Hammer™ Super Washing Soda = sodium carbonate?

 

[MattKing]

Had a quick business trip to LA and now I'm pretty well set for developer for awhile! Gotta love US prices sometimes—even in expensive California. 1.84kg of borax for about $9. This stuff works perfectly well in this formula. Also brought back 100g of phenidone from Bostick and Sullivan.

View attachment 332170

While at my second batch of University I worked for a couple of summers as a customs officer.
I guarantee that if I had opened your bag and found this, In would have looked at you and asked something like "You flew all the way from Dublin to LA and back and you are bringing back this!!!!????"

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

Arm & Hammer™ Super Washing Soda = sodium carbonate?

Yes.

S. Carbonate / washing soda has vanished from grocery store shelves - part of the government's War on Common Sense.

You can make S. Carbonate from S. Bicarbonate (baking soda). Spread it out on a glass dish and put it into a ~200F oven for half an hour - you should be left with anhydrous S. Carbonate; keep it in a glass jar so it doesn't absorb moisture from the air and cake up.

 

[MattKing]

S. Carbonate / washing soda has vanished from grocery store shelves - part of the government's War on Common Sense.

I'm going to suggest that it probably has more to do with the un-willingness of Arm and Hammer to pay for the shelf space - those payments are what determines which products you willfind there.
There is probably very little markup to play with in the price of the product.
It is easy to find here and, as far as I can see, in the USA if you buy it from those retailers through their internet portals.

 

[albada]

You can make S. Carbonate from S. Bicarbonate (baking soda). Spread it out on a glass dish and put it into a ~200F oven for half an hour - you should be left with anhydrous S. Carbonate; keep it in a glass jar so it doesn't absorb moisture from the air and cake up.

Is 200 F (93 C) high enough? This experiment says it should be over 110 C (230 F).

Mark

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

Is 200 F (93 C) high enough? This experiment says it should be over 110 C (230 F).

I wasn't sure of the temperature and Google came up with 200 - which did seem a trifle 'cold' to me. But Wikipedia sez S. Bicarbonate starts to decompose at 122F (50C).

I don't think you can do too much to S. Carbonate if gets it too hot. Wikipedia says it becomes anhydrous at 212F and melts at 1,500F, so there is a wide safety margin in there.

'Washing soda' is the decahydrate at 286 gm/mol while the anhydrous is 106 gm/mol - close to 3:1. Worth checking which form the formula is assuming. Either can be used.

 

[relistan]

Yes, we are spoiled, and yet we still bitch. I was playing with PC-512 over last weekend and tried the borax version along with the Kodalk(sodium metaborate) version. I didn't have my PH meter, so I just used1/3 less sodium metaborate per volume than borax. Both worked just fine and I will be doing some more work with PC512 now that I have my PH meter at hand. I think I could cut the Kodalk back slightly more, but the negatives from both borax and Kodalk were very close.

Excellent, John. Looking forward to seeing how things went.

John, once you have the amount of Kodalk dialed-in, please post that amount to this thread. Others would be interested. In fact, I suspect the Kodalk could be dissolved into glycol with the other two chemicals.

As I mentioned several times on this thread, aside from buffering behavior, which we will see whether it matters, the only way to make that a single solution is to use a lot of glycol and a much more dilute solution.

Let's say you could use 11g/L of metaborate to replace the borax. In that case you'd need to dissolve 55g of sodium metaborate into 100ml of glycol, or a 55% solution. Solubility at room temperature, around which you need some margin to keep from precipitating, is something like 24-25% in water. Sodium metaborate is more soluble in water than in propylene glycol (I can't find a real number) so you would need at least something like 5x as much propylene glycol. You then end up with a developer that you use at 1:10 or so and you use a lot of glycol. That might be worth it for someone. Even so, I think you might get too soupy a developer as a result of that much glycol. I wasn't eager to try it.

Arm & Hammer™ Super Washing Soda = sodium carbonate?

Yeah, and most grocery stores have it that I have been to in the last few years. I saw it at the same store in CA (Ralph's) and also at King Sooper's in Denver, and Fred Meyer in Portland, OR. All are Kroger subsidiaries, so if you have one of those locally, I'd check there.

While at my second batch of University I worked for a couple of summers as a customs officer.
I guarantee that if I had opened your bag and found this, In would have looked at you and asked something like "You flew all the way from Dublin to LA and back and you are bringing back this!!!!????"

Haha, yeah, you would have found a suitcase full of random shopping: the expat suitcase loaded with all the (non-perishable) stuff that we miss from home.

S. Carbonate / washing soda has vanished from grocery store shelves - part of the government's War on Common Sense.

As mentioned above, in the US it still seems to be widely available AFAICT. All the Kroger subsidiaries carry it at least in the 3 states I've been in in the last year (CA, OR, CO). I had looked because I briefly considered bringing a box of borax back a few times before. The washing soda is right near it.

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

Yeah, and most grocery stores have it that I have been to in the last few years. I saw it at the same store in CA (Ralph's) and also at King Sooper's in Denver, and Fred Meyer in Portland, OR. All are Kroger subsidiaries, so if you have one of those locally, I'd check there.

It seems I'll have to check some other grocery stores.

 

[aparat]

It seems I'll have to check some other grocery stores.

My local grocery store carries a 55 oz box of ARM & HAMMER Super Washing Soda for $5.69, which is much cheaper than Amazon's prices. I'm glad I read this thread!

 

[bluechromis]

If you have sodium metaborate lying around, and you're willing to dissolve chemicals into hot propylene glycol, you might try making some Mocon, which the OP references in his article. The Mocon article is here and here. Mocon was designed to give Xtol quality in a concentrate that lasts years when refrigerated or frozen. For both PC-512 and Mocon, you (1) create a PG-based concentrate, and (2) create a separate water-solution of an alkali. Mocon was tested on 11 films, all of which were measured with a densitometer and graphed, so films are known to attain box-speeds and have well-behaved H-D curves. One warning: I'm biased, because I am the inventor of Mocon.

@relistan : sodium metaborate will dissolve in PG, and borax has a similar composition, so it might dissolve in PG as well. If borax does not dissolve, you could try sodium metaborate in your formula instead, as John asked about. By dissolving one of those, you might be able to create a single concentrate to be used like HC-110 that yields D-76 quality. Folks would like that.

The recipe for Jay DeFehr's PG110B calls for dissolving the borax in glycol along with ascorbic acid and phenidone to create a one-part concentrate.

In making PG110B, I have only been able to dissolve the borax with difficulty. I can dissolve the borax and I can dissolve the other ingredients separately, but when I try to do them all together the glycol tends to coagulate into a thick sludge. I have tried using lower temps and stirring over an hour, but doesn't solve the problem. What I have done is to dissolve the borax and other ingredients as completely separate batches, and then combine the clear syrups at the end. As a result of the challenges, I usually add the dry borax separately when mixing working solution. But others seem to be able to dissolve the borax in PG110B with no problem.
https://www.flickr.com/groups/pc-tea/discuss/72157641775514563/