New HC-110 Formula

[alanrockwood]

There was no water to start with so none need be driven out.

The viscosity is the natural outcome of that mixture of chemicals.

PE

One thing that I have been curious about is why the DEA stays in solution. The melting point of DEA is 28C as I recall. That is a little above room temperature, so one would expect that the DEA would have been crystalized out in HC-110. Two explanations of why this might not be true: 1, freezing point depression due to the other things in solution and 2. Maybe a little water is actually present in HC-110. (Actually, this would be a variation of hypothesis number 1.)

 

[Photo Engineer]

Alan, either could be true. IDK.

However, I always guessed that freezing point depression was the cause.

PE

 

[Alan Johnson]

DEA forms deep eutectic solvent mixtures.

 

[pentaxuser]

There was no water to start with so none need be driven out.

The viscosity is the natural outcome of that mixture of chemicals.

PE

So have we concluded that water is now definitely present in the "new" HC110 and that shelf life will be thereby adversely affected?. Has anyone asked Kodak to confirm that HC110's viscosity has changed and what the reasons for this is such as water. Depending on the answer which I understand has now been asked by Grim Tuesday this may tell us everything that we have concerns about.

If storage life remains unaffected then the greater viscosity has to be a good thing doesn't it?

pentaxuser

 

[Photo Engineer]

Ummm, they say here that the viscosity is lower in the new stuff.

PE

 

[silveror0]

There was no water to start with so none need be driven out.

The viscosity is the natural outcome of that mixture of chemicals.

PE

The question then becomes:

Assuming viscosity signals long shelf life, which ingredient(s) are responsible for the viscosity - all or just certain ones? If certain ones are the answer, which ones? OR is the assumption a bad one?

 

[Photo Engineer]

Bad assumption!

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Ummm, they say here that the viscosity is lower in the new stuff.

PE

Careful, are we talking about the new-old stuff (made in Germany) which is known to be thinner or the new-new stuff (made in USA)? As far as I know, only the German stuff has been shipped out and it went out within the past six months or so. I haven't heard any first person reports about the new made in USA stuff.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Well, we just don't know then, do we?

PE

 

[MattKing]

Careful, are we talking about the new-old stuff (made in Germany) which is known to be thinner or the new-new stuff (made in USA)? As far as I know, only the German stuff has been shipped out and it went out within the past six months or so. I haven't heard any first person reports about the new made in USA stuff.

Don't forget the traditional European version of HC-110, which was half the concentration of the North American version (IIRC).

 

[silveror0]

Don't forget the traditional European version of HC-110, which was half the concentration of the North American version (IIRC).

FWIW, I have confirmation from Kodak Alaris that the European version of HC-110 (CAT 500 1466) has been discontinued.

 

[NB23]

People keep repeating that there’s an expiry date on their hc-110... I can’t find it on my bottles.

Also, there are no expiry dates on Ilford chemistry. None on ilfosol-3 (eeeexcelllllent developer by the way), dd-x, ilfotec-hc...

 

[Cholentpot]

After 7 pages of this I still can't decided if I should have panic bought the old HC-110 last week or just shrugged. Either was I'm covered for my HC-110 needs for a good long time. Last bottle is going on 3 years and I still got a quarter of the bottle left.

 

[Alan9940]

People keep repeating that there’s an expiry date on their hc-110... I can’t find it on my bottles.

I just bought 3 bottles of the...who knows, I guess we're calling it the "new old stuff"...and all had an expiry date clearly stamped on the bottle.

 

[billtroop]

After 7 pages of this I still can't decided if I should have panic bought the old HC-110 last week or just shrugged. Either was I'm covered for my HC-110 needs for a good long time. Last bottle is going on 3 years and I still got a quarter of the bottle left.

IMHO if you value HC-110 you will be stocking up on the old formula. The new formula will not have the stability, consistency, or reliability. Some have written that 3-year-old Legacy will still develop. But will it develop the same as when fresh? I don't think so. But HC-110-old could be trusted to do that. BTW, reported pH for old is 9.4, while pH for new is, unsurprisingly, 9.9. They had to use hydroxide to get anywhere near the ballpark of HC-110's activity. Also, I suggested that the new formula should be called Neo-HC-110, but I have a better idea: Non-HC-110. I encourage Kodak to rethink their strategy with this product. QUESTION: will Tmax developer, which also relies on the DEA-sulfur addition complex, be reformulated as well?

 

[markjwyatt]

I decided it was time to start developing B&W film myself again (after N decades) recently. I have not actually done it yet; though bought everything I need- including a bottle of the old HC110. Hopefully it lasts me long enough to decide what to do when I need to make the decision of what developer to buy again (probably a few years). I bought the HC110 because the results I could glean from opinions and images online appeared good, plus the longevity of the concentrate and the one-shot simplicity. I considered the generic Legacy LC110 (cheaper and available in smaller concentrate size), but it appeared to not be the same, so sprung for the "real" HC110. In the past it was mainly D76, but I do not want to mix stock solutions or work with powders.

 

[Cholentpot]

IMHO if you value HC-110 you will be stocking up on the old formula. The new formula will not have the stability, consistency, or reliability. Some have written that 3-year-old Legacy will still develop. But will it develop the same as when fresh? I don't think so. But HC-110-old could be trusted to do that. BTW, reported pH for old is 9.4, while pH for new is, unsurprisingly, 9.9. They had to use hydroxide to get anywhere near the ballpark of HC-110's activity. Also, I suggested that the new formula should be called Neo-HC-110, but I have a better idea: Non-HC-110. I encourage Kodak to rethink their strategy with this product. QUESTION: will Tmax developer, which also relies on the DEA-sulfur addition complex, be reformulated as well?

So now I have to panic buy the last bottle of Tmax too? This is getting silly.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

T-Max dev has the same "new formula" marking so it is also changed I imagine.

It all makes me want to change to Ilford or PF chemistry.

 

[NB23]

And D76, and Xtol...

 

[markjwyatt]

May be time to start collecting B&W chemistry formulary books...

 

[John Wiegerink]

So mama don't take my Xtol away.................... They mess with my Xtol and I'm outta here! I'll be rolling my own something and it won't have anything to do with the color yellow. Fixing something that ain't broke is just plain stupid. I'm sure that old HC-110
is just flying off the shelfs right now. I just wonder how the new stuff will sell? Of course most folks aren't as well informed as we are. They will think they are getting a better HC-110 because it's "NEW",

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Some have written that 3-year-old Legacy will still develop. But will it develop the same as when fresh? I don't think so. But HC-110-old could be trusted to do that.

Maybe Kodak Alaris will make available the new HC-110 in smaller volume bottles as well, say 300ml. That would hopefully put all concerns about shelf-life to rest. If you have not used up your 300ml in 6-12 months, dump it and buy a new bottle.

 

[alanrockwood]

...QUESTION: will Tmax developer, which also relies on the DEA-sulfur addition complex, be reformulated as well?

If the new HC-110 is the same as LegacyPro L110 then it seems likely that there will be a new Tmax developer that is the same as LegacyPro LMAX, but of couse we don't know for sure.

 

[alanrockwood]

Here is some information that might be interesting relative to the composition of developers related to HC-110. It is a pdf file of some of the physical and chemical properties of ethanolamines, i.e. monomethanolamin, diethanolamie (DEA), and triethanolamine (TEA).

http://msdssearch.dow.com/Published...ines/pdfs/noreg/111-01375.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc

Of particular interest are the viscocities (nearly the same for DEA and TEA) and pH (a 1% solution of DEA has a pH of about 10, and a 1% solution of TEA has a pH of about 11).

TEA is sometimes used to make home-brew developers. It is non-toxic and is easily available at places such as at Amazon. I don't know the toxicity or availability of DEA.

 

[silveror0]

...Of course most folks aren't as well informed as we are...,

If we're that well informed, there wouldn't be 7 pages in this thread. Nearly all here are hoping for qualified answers to our concerns. . I've been hoping that PE and Bill Troop have some answers regarding longevity of HC-110, since they possess quite some knowledge as to how this was achieved with their development of Liquidol print developer (likely two very different tasks, though). Perhaps they're also avoiding risks associated with Kodak propriety information...just guessing. That's what we're all doing here, looks like.

I'm also curious to know if proprietary ingredients are required to show up in published MSDS sheets.