New HC-110 Formula

MattKing · Aug 22, 2019

Well....
It certainly is possible that the work that has been done to create a "new" HC-110 has been oriented toward making it easier to measure and pour as well as easier to manufacture in more locations than just the previous Tetenal line. Maybe they came up with a way to ensure the same development performance and excellent longevity with a less viscous version.
You know, "New and Improved!"
And as for "best before" dates, these may be as much a reflection of what the ISO certifications require as anything else.
With the old HC-110, it was the packaging that was most vulnerable to failure.

markjwyatt · Aug 22, 2019

Maybe, or maybe they are just buying Legacy LC110 and repackaging it as "new and improved" Kodak HC110!

Or just as likely making it easier and cheaper to manufacture and stay in business.

Grim Tuesday · Aug 22, 2019

NB23 said:
It has been said far too many times: Alaris has nothing to do with it. Think of Alaris in charge of the marketing alone.

I guess I am not really sure who is in charge of it then. My impression has been that:

Alaris owns the formulas and copyrights
Carestream in Colorado makes b+w films
Eastman Kodak in Rochester makes some films (color films (?))
The old Kodak factory in China maybe makes some films for lomo and also maybe for Kodak
Tetanal makes the chemistry
Alaris does the marketing

So who would be the group in charge of designing a new developer?

markjwyatt · Aug 22, 2019

My bottle looks like typical bottles, such as this one that expires in 2016. I suspect that is the "classic" HC110. ( https://www.ebay.com/itm/Kodak-Prof...581359&hash=item237bdc4467:g:SNYAAOSwUKxYf~-I )

Here is one that has Panatomic-X listed on the back label!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Kodak-Deve...654208?hash=item42010fccc0:g:nl8AAOSwE~1b4W6Q

Here is one that claims to be "vintage"
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Ko...=1227063528677104d87139934472b836454774a54bbd

Alan9940 · Aug 23, 2019

Hmm, it appears that the 3 bottles I just got from Freestyle is the "new old stuff" made in Germany. Personally, I really don't care as long as it's performance matches the stuff I've used for 40 years. As for it's long-term keeping properties, I guess we'll all know... eventually.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Aug 23, 2019

markjwyatt said:
Maybe, or maybe they are just buying Legacy LC110 and repackaging it as "new and improved" Kodak HC110!

Could the new HC-110 be an improved LegacyPro L110?

MattKing · Aug 23, 2019

Grim Tuesday said:
I guess I am not really sure who is in charge of it then. My impression has been that:

Alaris owns the formulas and copyrights

Carestream in Colorado makes b+w films

Eastman Kodak in Rochester makes some films (color films (?))

The old Kodak factory in China maybe makes some films for lomo and also maybe for Kodak

Tetanal makes the chemistry

Alaris does the marketing

So who would be the group in charge of designing a new developer?

Carestream's plant - which Kodak Alaris may also have an interest in - is used to make Kodak colour photographic paper.
Eastman Kodak manufactures all Kodak films. Still films, both colour and black and white, which Kodak Alaris markeys and buys from Eastman Kodak, and motion picture films, which Eastman Kodak markets themselves.
Kodak Alaris has been contracting with Tetenal (most likely) to manufacture black and white chemicals for marketing by Kodak Alaris. There are some indications that Kodak Alaris is contracting with Chinese manufacturers to make Kodak colour chemistry for marketing by Kodak Alaris.
These newest black and white chemicals appear to now be made, at least for the North American market, by a US manufacturer.

Grim Tuesday · Aug 23, 2019

MattKing said:
Carestream's plant - which Kodak Alaris may also have an interest in - is used to make Kodak colour photographic paper.
Eastman Kodak manufactures all Kodak films. Still films, both colour and black and white, which Kodak Alaris markeys and buys from Eastman Kodak, and motion picture films, which Eastman Kodak markets themselves.
Kodak Alaris has been contracting with Tetenal (most likely) to manufacture black and white chemicals for marketing by Kodak Alaris. There are some indications that Kodak Alaris is contracting with Chinese manufacturers to make Kodak colour chemistry for marketing by Kodak Alaris.
These newest black and white chemicals appear to now be made, at least for the North American market, by a US manufacturer.

Thanks for correcting me, I am glad to get better info than what I had before.

But who do we think formulates the new chemistry?

MattKing · Aug 23, 2019

Grim Tuesday said:
Thanks for correcting me, I am glad to get better info than what I had before.

But who do we think formulates the new chemistry?

It is probably a team effort between the manufacturer(s) that Kodak Alaris contracts with - who may very well have staff with Eastman Kodak experience - and the remaining technical resource people at Kodak Alaris - some of whom may work as consultants.

AgX · Aug 23, 2019

NB23 said:
It has been said far too many times: Alaris has nothing to do with it. Think of Alaris in charge of the marketing alone.

How can? Alaris bought at least two plants relevant to us, including their employees.
You seemingly only refer to still-film manufacture.

miha · Aug 23, 2019

Ilfotec HC was my main developer for years, never goes bad in my experience - Ilford even say that full, unopened bottles of ILFORD HC concentrates stored in cool conditions will keep indefinitely. It's very thick (I can't imagine the old HC-110 being even thicker) and as NB23 says it has a nutty fragrance I've never found a better developer for HP5+, either exposed at EI 400 or pushed severely.

absalom1951 · Aug 23, 2019

If someone has a freshly opened bottle of L110 I'd be willing to send them my 3 year old bottle of L110 so they could test it against the new L110. Don't know if it would prove much ? PM me if you are interested ? I'd even ship it free of charge .

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Aug 23, 2019

absalom1951 said:
If someone has a freshly opened bottle of L110 I'd be willing to send them my 3 year old bottle of L110 so they could test it against the new L110. Don't know if it would prove much ? PM me if you are interested ? I'd even ship it free of charge .

Alternatively, your 3 year old L110 can be compared against somebody's 3 year old HC110.

absalom1951 · Aug 23, 2019

True ! I never thought of that.

mgb74 · Aug 23, 2019

New and improved?

What I find interesting is that Kodak Alaris does tout anything improved (at least from a consumer standpoint). All I could find is "New Formula, same great results!" at https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/photographers-photo-printing/resources/chem-tech-info

kingbuzzie · Aug 23, 2019

NB23 said:
Guys, please keep in thought that Ilfotec-HC is

-More watery than “good old HC110”
-Less viscous that “good old HC110”. I’d say that “good old HC-110” was double thicker than Ilfotec-HC.
-Is yellow and never turns reddish, always stays yellow
-Is more expensive than HC-110
-Has never had an expiry date on the container.
-Has a nutty fragrance and is excellent all around.

This being said, all of the above doesn’t refrain Ilfotec-HC of expiring (no expiry) and it seems that the “new” HC-110 is getting closer to Ilfotec-hc

Well heck, if ilfotec-HC has the same keeping properties, I would just buy that. If someone with some chemistry background could confirm, then there's not much to worry about (for now, until it's time to panic buy something else).

mshchem · Aug 23, 2019

People are getting WAY too worried about this. Alaris knows what they are doing. Labs buy color chemistry as a commodity without a big deal. If Alaris has a recipe anyone can make it. These changes are the reality of the landscape right now. There's always D-76 made from scratch for film and D-72 for paper.

billtroop · Aug 24, 2019

Grim Tuesday said:
The similarity with respect to only one stock spooks me. Does Alaris still employ research chemists or is it likely this formula is "from the archive?"

The new formula is unlikely to have come from Kodak's archive, and doesn't appear to emanate from Kodak at all. Appearances suggest that the new Non-HC-110 and Non-T-Max developers are the house formulas of the new manufacturer of Kodak, or rather Non-Kodak, chemistry. This marks a new ,and unprecedented low in Kodak's post-restructuring history. As I suspected, the same changes have been made to T-max developer. REAL T-max developer has a pH of 8.8. The new Non-T-max Developer has a pH of 9.7. At just about one unit, that is a big jump. It reflects the efficiency of the Kodak process, the inefficiency of the non-Kodak process. The folks at Legacy Pro, or whoever is now making (non)Kodak chemistry, would be well-advised to drop the "similar" or "improved" charade, and buckle down to making the DEA-sulfur dioxide addition product. I don't believe the current strategy is going to bring anyone either credit or profit. It may have convinced someone in Kodak management, but I don't think it will convince Kodak brand customers. This is very sad to write.

AgX · Aug 24, 2019

miha said:
Ilfotec HC was my main developer for years, never goes bad in my experience - Ilford even say that full, unopened bottles of ILFORD HC concentrates stored in cool conditions will keep indefinitely. It's very thick.

It too is designed around DEA.

Wallendo · Aug 24, 2019

I suspect that most people using HC-110 routinely will use up a bottle in a year or so (often less), so much of this argument is academic, not practical.
Interestingly, Rodinal is quite thin, but also seems to last forever.

I do wonder how long KA will be able to get away with selling L-110 at an HC-110 price. I buy HC-110 because of its longevity. If this is lost, and we won't know this for a while, I will have no incentive to pay extra for a Kodak branded product.

billtroop · Aug 24, 2019

AgX said:
It too is designed around DEA.

Just to be clear, it is not that it is designed around DEA, which doesn't require any sophisticated manufacturing, but around the DEA-sulfur dioxide addition complex.

billtroop · Aug 24, 2019

Wallendo said:
I suspect that most people using HC-110 routinely will use up a bottle in a year or so (often less), so much of this argument is academic, not practical.
Interestingly, Rodinal is quite thin, but also seems to last forever.

I do wonder how long KA will be able to get away with selling L-110 at an HC-110 price. I buy HC-110 because of its longevity. If this is lost, and we won't know this for a while, I will have no incentive to pay extra for a Kodak branded product.

Longevity is one of the issues, but it isn't the only one. HC-110 is a unique developer. An important characteristic is its solvency, and the use of an "antistain agent", polyvinyl pyrrolidone, to prevent dichroic fog. Given the huge amount of meticulous work that has been done with HC-110 by Zone System practitioners, I don't think it is possible that similar results would be attainable from this substitute formula. I still can hardly believe that Kodak would consider making this kind of replacement. It is truly the end of an era, and I hope it will be reversed. All of that said, some modern films are intentionally designed to show as little variation with different developers as possible.

Grim Tuesday · Aug 24, 2019

Is there any test we can do at home to determine what the watery German hc-110 actually is?

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Aug 24, 2019

billtroop said:
HC-110 is a unique developer.

Interestingly, Gerry had the following to say in an old thread on HC-110:

Gerald C Koch said:
From Kodak's website:
Compared to D-76, HC-110 (dilution B) produces:
Slightly less shadow detail or true film speed;
Slightly finer grain;
Slightly lower acutance.

My point was that HC-110 was designed to reproduce the results of D-76. The conclusion is therefore that D-76 is a good homebrew replacement for HC-110. I wasn't trying to be sarcastic.

There is an interesting corollary in this and that is that there are no miraculous developers. No matter how strange the chemistry of HC-110 it still behaves like a well known conventional developer.

AgX · Aug 24, 2019

billtroop said:
Just to be clear, it is not that it is designed around DEA, which doesn't require any sophisticated manufacturing, but around the DEA-sulfur dioxide addition complex.

That is what I meant, however in all manufacturers' MSDS that complex does not show up, thus my wording....

New HC-110 Formula

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