New HC-110 Formula

[pentaxuser]

I can't understand Fuji. They discontinued the original Acros, citing insufficient demand to keep production going. And then later, bring it back and twice the price and somehow think there will be more demand?

Yes we are as one on this. Both you and I are puzzled about this but we are largely in the minority according to others. I do wish that all the questions that your line of reasoning invokes could be answered but I also wish that Covid -19 would disappear tomorrow. I fear that neither wish will be fulfilled

That's it. I promise that on this thread about HC110 I have uttered my last words on Acros II

pentaxuser

 

[ChristopherCoy]

My bottle with the "NEW FORMULA" label just arrived. It's less like motor oil, and more like lemonade than I expected. This viscosity is very water like and not syrupy at all.

 

[NB23]

Thinking... hc-110 new coincides bizarrely with covid-19... New Lab...

Yes we are as one on this. Both you and I are puzzled about this but we are largely in the minority according to others. I do wish that all the questions that your line of reasoning invokes could be answered but I also wish that Covid -19 would disappear tomorrow. I fear that neither wish will be fulfilled

That's it. I promise that on this thread about HC110 I have uttered my last words on Acros II

pentaxuser

 

[MattKing]

Thinking... hc-110 new coincides bizarrely with covid-19... New Lab...

Well, the Spanish Flu of 1917 - 19 may very well have originated in the US.
HC-110 is now, once again, made in the US.
That would be enough proof for certain well known political commentators...

 

[Bormental]

I can't understand Fuji. They discontinued the original Acros, citing insufficient demand to keep production going. And then later, bring it back and twice the price and somehow think there will be more demand?

I agree with you, it's expensive. But to be fair to Fujifilm, their reason for discontinuation was sourcing of the unnamed ingredient, one of their suppliers was unable to provide it in sufficient quantities. Across II is not the exact replica of the original emulsion, it is now made without that (again, unknown) component. That's what I remember reading in the news, anyway.

 

[oldche]

Somebody detailed the differences as disclosed in the SDS in this thread. I can't search all 18 pages to find the specifics, but I do recall that the differences found were not trivial.

Yes, I gave details on the composition changes in an earlier post in this thread.

 

[John Bragg]

You are correct, they did call it Acros II. I had forgotten that, never having seen a roll in my hand. The price keeps me from having any interest in it. I can't understand Fuji. They discontinued the original Acros, citing insufficient demand to keep production going. And then later, bring it back and twice the price and somehow think there will be more demand?

Shrewd marketing, NOT !
I loved Neopan 400 but wouldn't look at it if it was reintroduced at a similar inflated price.

 

[John Bragg]

Even if Kodak hadn't sown seeds of doubt by changing the formulation of HC-110, I would still be moving over to Ilford chemistry on account of cost. I want to support Alaris in their efforts to keep the brand viable, but the pricing is way too expensive for me. I love Tri-X, but I have learned to love HP5+ as its equivalent. HC-110 was the last Kodak product that I held on to in my regular usage, but Ilfotec HC is functionally the same and retains the longevity and the viscosity at 2/3 the price. Its a no brainer.

 

[NB23]

Dude, Ilford makes papers while Kodak dropped papers about 20 years ago or so.

What else needs to be said?

Even if Kodak hadn't sown seeds of doubt by changing the formulation of HC-110, I would still be moving over to Ilford chemistry on account of cost. I want to support Alaris in their efforts to keep the brand viable, but the pricing is way too expensive for me. I love Tri-X, but I have learned to love HP5+ as its equivalent. HC-110 was the last Kodak product that I held on to in my regular usage, but Ilfotec HC is functionally the same and retains the longevity and the viscosity at 2/3 the price. Its a no brainer.

 

[alanrockwood]

... Ilfotec HC [as HC110] is functionally the same and retains the longevity and the viscosity at 2/3 the price. Its a no brainer.

At my favorite online vendor in the US Iflord HC is almost twice the price of Kodak HC110. ($65 vs. $35 for one liter of concentrate.)

 

[John Bragg]

At my favorite online vendor in the US Iflord HC is almost twice the price of Kodak HC110. ($65 vs. $35 for one liter of concentrate.)

Yes, I can't understand the disparity. In the UK, Tri-X was cheaper than HP5+ for longer than I can remember, but price hikes have reversed that. Ilford also supply direct.

 

[John Bragg]

Dude, Ilford makes papers while Kodak dropped papers about 20 years ago or so.

What else needs to be said?

Indeed !

 

[BradS]

My bottle with the "NEW FORMULA" label just arrived. It's less like motor oil, and more like lemonade than I expected. This viscosity is very water like and not syrupy at all.

Yes, it's a completely different formula with a whole new set of physical properties. You need to forget what HC-110 used to be and now deal with it as it is since the product is radically different in composition.

Except that nobody who's actually used the new stuff has found that the new stuff works differently from or produces result different from those of the old stuff.
So, no. We absolutely do not need to forget what we already know about HC-110 !!!!

 

[alanrockwood]

Except that nobody, NOBODY has found that the new stuff works differently from or produces result different from those of the old stuff.
So, no. We absolutely do not need to forget what we already know about HC-110 !!!!

I think there are two issues (well, maybe two and one half issues) that are of concern. The first is whether fresh New-Formula-HC-110 gives the same results as fresh Old-Formula-HC-110 under most usage conditions. The second is whether the new formula has a long shelf life like the old formula had. The third (or maybe one could call it the second and one half) is whether New-Formula-HC-110 gives similar results to Old-Formula-HC-110 under non-typical usage, such as stand development or "tortured" HC-110 where one might alter the formula, such as changing the pH or adding ascorbic acid.

I think there is enough anecdotal information (combined with the claims of the manufacturer) to conclude that fresh New-Formula-HC-110 gives similar results to fresh Old-Formula-HC-110 under most usage conditions, but the other two questions are not yet resolved, and probably won't be resolved anytime soon.

 

[BradS]

I think there are two issues (well, maybe two and one half issues) that are of concern. The first is whether fresh New-Formula-HC-110 gives the same results as fresh Old-Formula-HC-110 under most usage conditions. The second is whether the new formula has a long shelf life like the old formula had. The third (or maybe one could call it the second and one half) is whether New-Formula-HC-110 gives similar results to Old-Formula-HC-110 under non-typical usage, such as stand development or "tortured" HC-110 where one might alter the formula, such as changing the pH or adding ascorbic acid.

I think there is enough anecdotal information (combined with the claims of the manufacturer) to conclude that fresh New-Formula-HC-110 gives similar results to fresh Old-Formula-HC-110 under most usage conditions, but the other two questions are not yet resolved, and probably won't be resolved anytime soon.

I do not disagree. For me, personally, the first issue gets about a 80% weight and seem well settled. As to the storage life (20% weight), I'm satisfied that even if it is not 20+ years, it is good enough. I think we have some circumstantial evidence that suggests it may keep well for as much as 15 years. And finally, issue 3 is, for me, a non-issue (0% weight).

 

[WD4AON]

Whenever somebody mentions "the environment", I've got their number in an instant. It's part of the prism these people look through at everything. Ho hum. MSDS is and always was a basic list for medics or firemen. But we still have laws of patent and copyright. Consider Coke syrup. I wouldn't give it another thought.

Henry,
Chemical combinations are not protectable by copyright. HC-110 is nearly sixty years old, so the patent protection expired about 40 years ago, and the te teachings therein are now public domain. HC-110 is not covered by either scheme. Note that is a high art in legal construction of patent claims to broadly cover what you want to protect, without revealing EXACTLY how your product is made.
Terry
de w4aon
Retired Registered Patent Attorney
Reg. No. 30291

 

[MattKing]

It works the same when using it normally, within the time frame recommended by the manufacturer.
If people are using it unusual ways, and obtaining different results in those circumstances, it will be helpful to share that information.
Most likely those changes will resemble the sorts of changes people observed when other changes happened - such as when production was first outsourced to Tetenal.

 

[bnxvs]

AFAIK, the syrupy appearance of HC-110 is due to the presence of polyvinylpyrrolidone, which can be sometimes found as a jellylike precipitate at the bottom of old HC-110 packages. Apparently, it has no effect on development speed. The true originality of HC-110 formula was to get rid of water entirely, but for practical reasons 30% potassium sulfite also makes a concentrated developer with a very long shelf life. My HC-110 also clearly contains some catechol, most likely as an additional preservation agent. I think what the original user is trying to say that it is possible to compose an active phenidone-hydroquinone developer which will come very close, imagewise, to HC-110.

I think you are absolutely right. Some experiments with the “new” formula allowed me to be convinced that without the introduction of polyvinylpyrrolidone into the composition, the viscosity composition is only slightly different from water.
In addition, PVP most likely performs the function of an agent that suppresses the formation of dichroic fog.
The presence of PVP in the concentrate is not reflected in the MSDS, but most likely it is present there. At the same time, since PVP is not a dangerous substance and is used in the cosmetic and food industries, its indication in the MSDS is most likely not required.

 

[thebasementzone]

Henry,
Chemical combinations are not protectable by copyright. HC-110 is nearly sixty years old, so the patent protection expired about 40 years ago, and the te teachings therein are now public domain. HC-110 is not covered by either scheme. Note that is a high art in legal construction of patent claims to broadly cover what you want to protect, without revealing EXACTLY how your product is made.
Terry
de w4aon
Retired Registered Patent Attorney
Reg. No. 30291

Has anyone attempted to make a DIY of this formula or of the similar Ilford HC?

 

[cmacd123]

Has anyone attempted to make a DIY of this formula or of the similar Ilford HC?

when PE was still alive he did mention that the way the original formula was made, the intermediate ingredients were hard to synthesis, and at least one of them was explosive at one point in the process. Only a major chemical company would be in position to duplicate the stuff.

 

[thebasementzone]

This is probably a minor point to anyone pissed off about the reformulation, but still worth noting that HC-110 has been through various iterations since the original release.

True, this version is less viscous than older versions. Perhaps true a bottle might keep for only 10 years instead of 20.

Other than that I’m confident nobody would be able to tell the difference between this HC-110 and other versions.

when PE was still alive he did mention that the way the original formula was made, the intermediate ingredients were hard to synthesis, and at least one of them was explosive at one point in the process. Only a major chemical company would be in position to duplicate the stuff.

Any recommends for a comparable concentrate solution that does not need to be made in a lab?

 

[alanrockwood]

....Or just buy Ilford’s equivalent.

Does the Ilford equivalent have the long shelf life that HC-110 has?

 

[Donald Qualls]

Any recommends for a comparable concentrate solution that does not need to be made in a lab?

If shelf life is the main goal, the formula for Rodinal (a 1930s version), including mixing procedure, is publicly available. Parodinal, made from acetminophen (paracetamol) has only four ingredients including water, and I've had it last more than six months in a jam jar that was less than 1/3 full (and I ran out of it without it dying). You'll never mistake it for HC-110, though.

One of the things HC-110 was intended to do was to substitute for a number of other developers in commercial lab processes -- in terms of giving similar process times (in various dilutions) to common developers you might see, say, the local drug store using in the back room lab -- so depending what dilution you use, D-76, D-23, or D-72 (or various Ilford, Agfa, etc. formulae) might be a replacement in terms of results and process (even though none of them are chemically similar, nor have similar shelf life to the old syrup).

For a long-lasting non-aqueous concentrate, you might look at PC-TEA or 510 Pyro.

 

[bnxvs]

Any recommends for a comparable concentrate solution that does not need to be made in a lab?

You will need a Bunsen flask, a large amount of toluene (or other volatile solvent). You will also need good ventilation as volatile solvent vapors are explosive and toxic.
It is possible to obtain a complex of sulfur dioxide in DEA by bubbling SO2 through a solution of DEA in toluene. After saturation of the solution with sulfur dioxide, it will be sufficient to remove the toluene with slight heating at low pressure.

p.s. And if you are interested in the "new" formula, then everything is simpler. In fact, the main difference between the old formula and the new one is the replacement of the sulfur dioxide complex in DEA with a saturated water solution of potassium sulfite (± 65%).
I would recommend you do a "new formula". It is simpler, safer, and doesn't require complex equipment.

 

[John Bragg]

Ilfotec HC concentrate probably doesn’t have the shelf life previous versions of HC-110 were reputed to have. Only time and anecdotes will tell how long the new version of HC-110 keeps.

In use, Ilfotec HC would appear to be the same as the HC-110 we all knew and loved. It is to all intents and purposes as similar as ID:11 is to D-76. I have never heard anything bad about its longevity, and in point of fact, it is made by Tetenal, as was the last iteration of HC-110. Use it with confidence and if you have any doubts at all, do as I do and divide the factory bottle into smaller lots. I use 100ml Calpol bottles that are brown glass and come supplied with a handy syringe for measuring.