Nikkormat FT3 vs early Minolta SRT102 which is better?

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Chan Tran

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so whats the solution?

Some cameras even if they use mercury battery the meter is fine with the higher voltage and in this case I use 625 alkaline batteries which fit exactly but with higher voltage. My Canon EF is of this type. The Canonet while the voltage does affect the meter reading it's close enough (within 1/3 stop).
My 2 SRT101's the meter readings are different for different voltage but even with the correct voltage the meter is not accurate and not linear that is you need a different amount of compensation for low light vs bright light. In this case I simply use them without the batteries.
I don't care for Wein cell or Zinc air batteries solution.
 

dynachrome

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A few things: CdS meters were not perfectly linear even when the cameras they came with were new. There are a few ways you can handle this. Typically, as has been mentioned, the non-linearity shows up when the light is lower. If you use a roll of Portra 400 and set the meter to 200, your photos in good light might be slightly overexposed and those in poor light should be about right. Color print film has some lattitude and that lattitude should take you the rest of the way. You can get a hand held light meter. You can adjust the ASA dial at the beginning of a day's shooting based on a known accurate meter. This would be for using a 1.5 volt battery in a camera made for a 1.35 volt battery. Most people no longer shoot slide film. It is expensive and has very little exposure lattitude. If you want to shoot slide film, look for a camera which does not have a CdS meter. These would include the Minolta X-700, Canon EF, Nikon N90S, Canon New F-1 etc. Presumably you are looking to get some enjoyment from your picture taking. Don't worry that your camera's meter is off by 1/10 of a stop. The perfect doesn't have to be the enemy of the good.

Minolta's first 35mm SLR was the SR-2 of 1958. It introduced the SR mount. That same badic mount is found on cameras even after Minolta stopped making them. Manufacturers in China and possibly also Japan sold them in the U.S. under the Vivitar and other names. The SR-2 did not have a built-in meter. Clip-on meters were later made for SR series cameras. The first Minolta interchangeable lens SLR with a built-in meter was the SR-7. This camera had a meter cell on the outside of the body. It did not read light through the lens. As such, the Auto Rokkors were not meter coupled. What was auto about them? They had auto diaphragm operation.

The SRT 101 of 1966 had built-in through the lens metering. This required a tab to transmit the aperture setting to the camera. I have seen a few odd cases where someone attached a meter tab to an older SR lens. The SR mount changed again in 1977 with the addition of the MD tab. Some of the early MC lenses, like the 58/1.4, were carry-overs from the previous Auto Rokkor designs. Minolta did not make important changes to the lens coatings until the introduction of the MC Rokkor-X lenses in 1973. You can use Auto Rokkors on later cameras with stop down metering. To slightly complicate things further, in the early SR era, Minolta took some lenses from the earlier rangefinder models and put SR mounts on them. These lenses do not have auto diapgragms. For regular picture taking, any of the MC Rokkor-X, MD Rokkor-X or plain MD lenses will get you the best results.
 
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GaryFlorida

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A few things: CdS meters were not perfectly linear even when the cameras they came with were new. There are a few ways you can handle this. Typically, as has been mentioned, the non-linearity shows up when the light is lower. If you use a roll of Portra 400 and set the meter to 200, your photos in good light might be slightly overexposed and those in poor light should be about right. Color print film has some lattitude and that lattitude should take you the rest of the way. You can get a hand held light meter. You can adjust the ASA dial at the beginning of a day's shooting based on a known accurate meter. This would be for using a 1.5 volt battery in a camera made for a 1.35 volt battery. Most people no longer shoot slide film. It is expensive and has very little exposure lattitude. If you want to shoot slide film, look for a camera which does not have a CdS meter. These would include the Minolta X-700, Canon EF, Nikon N90S, Canon New F-1 etc. Presumably you are looking to get some enjoyment from your picture taking. Don't worry that your camera's meter is off by 1/10 of a stop. The perfect doesn't have to be the enemy of the good.

Minolta's first 35mm SLR was the SR-2 of 1958. It introduced the SR mount. That same badic mount is found on cameras even after Minolta stopped making them. Manufacturers in China and possibly also Japan sold them in the U.S. under the Vivitar and other names. The SR-2 did not have a built-in meter. Clip-on meters were later made for SR series cameras. The first Minolta interchangeable lens SLR with a built-in meter was the SR-7. This camera had a meter cell on the outside of the body. It did not read light through the lens. As such, the Auto Rokkors were not meter coupled. What was auto about them? They had auto diaphragm operation.

The SRT 101 of 1966 had built-in through the lens metering. This required a tab to transmit the aperture setting to the camera. I have seen a few odd cases where someone attached a meter tab to an older SR lens. The SR mount changed again in 1977 with the addition of the MD tab. Some of the early MC lenses, like the 58/1.4, were carry-overs from the previous Auto Rokkor designs. Minolta did not make important changes to the lens coatings until the introduction of the MC Rokkor-X lenses in 1973. You can use Auto Rokkors on later cameras with stop down metering. To slightly complicate things further, in the early SR era, Minolta took some lenses from the earlier rangefinder models and put SR mounts on them. These lenses do not have auto diapgragms. For regular picture taking, any of the MC Rokkor-X, MD Rokkor-X or plain MD lenses will get you the best results.

Thank you Dyna for the expert insight!! One question, you said that even when new and with the correct battery, the meters in the STR-102 class were not accurate because they are not linear, not proportionate to the level of light. Is that right? I was reading yesterday that Minolta prided themselves in their new meters in this line of cameras. It had two sensors one for highlights and one for shadows and it would average them or calculate it some how based on these two values. Was this just marketing then and the meters were actually not good enough for slide film?
 

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A resistor would not work nor even a diode like in some adapters. They drop a fixed amount from the silver oxide battery but silver oxide while relatively more stable than alkaline it's not as stable as mercury and thus the voltage drops during the life of the battery. Modern metering circuits work with a range of voltage and thus doesn't affect their accuracy. A regulator would work but a regulator would drain the battery.

so whats the solution?

A germanium diode - unlike a resistor, is ideal for it's fixed voltage drop of 0.3V and minimum current. Here's instructions if you're DIY type although it uses a Schottky diode (0.4v drop) -> Converting the SRT to use 1.5v cels
 

xkaes

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later production runs of the 102 (and earlier 101) models do not have mirror lock-up

You're right, there were TWO versions of the SRT 102, and the later version dropped the mirror lock-up feature. As to the SRT 101, there were THREE version, and the first two had the mirror lock-up. Like with the SRT 102, the last version of the SRT 101 dropped it.

For a complete comparison of all of the Minolta SLR cameras and there features, check out this table on MINMAN. Because the table is so long, there are check boxes on the left hand side. Just click the models you want to compare, and press the COMPARE button on the bottom:

http://www.subclub.org/minman/slrtable.php
 

Chan Tran

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A germanium diode - unlike a resistor, is ideal for it's fixed voltage drop of 0.3V and minimum current. Here's instructions if you're DIY type although it uses a Schottky diode (0.4v drop) -> Converting the SRT to use 1.5v cels

Yes it would drop 0.3v but the silver oxide battery must provide 1.5V for its entire useful life but it doesn't. Although not as bad as alkaline the silver oxide battery voltage do drop during its useful life. A voltage regulator which would regulate the voltage to 1.35V regardless of how high the supply voltage is would work. But you have to put the power switch ahead of the regulator chip otherwise it would drain the battery.
 

xkaes

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There is a rokkorfiles website which will explain the differences between the different series of Minolta manual focus lenses.

FYI, the Rokkorfiles doesn't cover all of Minolta SLRs, let alone all of the SLR lenses. For a complete look at all of Minolta's still, non-auto-focusing cameras and lenses (NOT just 35mm SLRs), visit MINMAN -- unlike the Rokkorfiles, it's been around for over 30 years.

Here are Minolta's SLR cameras:

http://www.subclub.org/minman/minslr.htm

And here are their SLR lenses:

http://www.subclub.org/minman/slrlens.htm
 
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xkaes

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Was this just marketing then and the meters were actually not good enough for slide film?

I've got tons of Kodachrome 25 slides taken with SRT cameras, and the meters hardly miss -- but camera meters are reflectance meters and can only measure what they are pointed at. If you don't understand how they operate, and use them correctly, you will get it wrong -- not the camera.
 

dynachrome

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I did not mean to criticize the SRT's metering. I am simply stating that there were and are issues with all CdS cells. They were a big improvement over selenium cells and are much more sensitive. Later silicon blue and GPD cells made further improvements.
 
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GaryFlorida

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Yes it would drop 0.3v but the silver oxide battery must provide 1.5V for its entire useful life but it doesn't. Although not as bad as alkaline the silver oxide battery voltage do drop during its useful life. A voltage regulator which would regulate the voltage to 1.35V regardless of how high the supply voltage is would work. But you have to put the power switch ahead of the regulator chip otherwise it would drain the battery.

Thats a great link on converting! Thank you for posting that. Its sad that Mr Sullivans site is no longer available. It sounds like it was a tremendous tribute to the SRT line. I wish someone would have backed that up. The only links on the Rokkorfiles is just that article on converting batteries. Do you know if the rest of sullivans site is backed up anywhere?
 

xkaes

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so whats the solution?

You may not need a solution, but there are lots of approaches you can try.

I'd start by reading a gray card at f16 on a sunny day with a 625A 1.5v battery and see how far off from sunny f16 your meter is.
 

Chan Tran

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You may not need a solution, but there are lots of approaches you can try.

I'd start by reading a gray card at f16 on a sunny day with a 625A 1.5v battery and see how far off from sunny f16 your meter is.

Right I found the Canon EF, Canonet QL17 GIII, the Olympus 35-RC work fine with alkaline batteries. The SRT-101's don't so I don't use the meter in the SRT.
 

Sirius Glass

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The question is which one feels better in your hands. Both are very capable cameras and lens systems.
 

xkaes

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Right I found the Canon EF, Canonet QL17 GIII, the Olympus 35-RC work fine with alkaline batteries. The SRT-101's don't so I don't use the meter in the SRT.

And some other cameras are only slightly off -- which can be dealt with by making a small adjustment to the ISO setting.
 

Les Sarile

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Yes it would drop 0.3v but the silver oxide battery must provide 1.5V for its entire useful life but it doesn't. Although not as bad as alkaline the silver oxide battery voltage do drop during its useful life. A voltage regulator which would regulate the voltage to 1.35V regardless of how high the supply voltage is would work. But you have to put the power switch ahead of the regulator chip otherwise it would drain the battery.

Correct, the diode is not a voltage regulator. It's purposes is to simply start the meter at the voltage it was intended for. Over the course of it's use, the battery voltage will drop as is normal.
 

MattKing

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Any test with any battery/adapter needs to be performed at various stages of the battery's life in order to be able to tell whether a replacement for the original mercury based cels is reliable.
A fresh alkaline cel performs quite differently than a 50% discharged alkaline cel. With some cameras/meters, that matters a lot.
 

xkaes

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This first thing I do when I get in my car is check how much gas is in the tank. Doesn't everybody? I guess not.

Anyway, it's a good idea with any meter -- in-camera or not -- to run a simple sunny f16, or similar test for accuracy every so often. While many cameras & meters have battery checks, they don't check for accuracy.
 
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GaryFlorida

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This first thing I do when I get in my car is check how much gas is in the tank. Doesn't everybody? I guess not.

Anyway, it's a good idea with any meter -- in-camera or not -- to run a simple sunny f16, or similar test for accuracy every so often. While many cameras & meters have battery checks, they don't check for accuracy.

speaking of battery test lights, with the diode would the battery test light come on at what voltage?
Correct, the diode is not a voltage regulator. It's purposes is to simply start the meter at the voltage it was intended for. Over the course of it's use, the battery voltage will drop as is normal.

It starts the meter. So 1.5v coming through from modern battery, what does the diode do with the xtra voltage? It must be regulating it if only 1.35v is getting through.
 

Les Sarile

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This first thing I do when I get in my car is check how much gas is in the tank. Doesn't everybody? I guess not.

Anyway, it's a good idea with any meter -- in-camera or not -- to run a simple sunny f16, or similar test for accuracy every so often. While many cameras & meters have battery checks, they don't check for accuracy.

Who needs a meter when you can take advantage of most color and b&w film's extreme latitude . . .
 

Les Sarile

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speaking of battery test lights, with the diode would the battery test light come on at what voltage?


It starts the meter. So 1.5v coming through from modern battery, what does the diode do with the xtra voltage? It must be regulating it if only 1.35v is getting through.

The germanium, silicon and Schottky diodes each have a fixed voltage drop. A voltage regulator is intended to maintain the voltage output to a level. Zener diodes are a "poor mans" regulator as opposed to more complex designs.
 
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GaryFlorida

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The germanium, silicon and Schottky diodes each have a fixed voltage drop. A voltage regulator is intended to maintain the voltage output to a level. Zener diodes are a "poor mans" regulator as opposed to more complex designs.

I see, so it does regulate the voltage from being too high. Then once the battery gets weaker to below 1.35v then what happens? The battery test function would show the needle not going into the pass test box. I think this is the ideal solution actually.
 

xkaes

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Who needs a meter when you can take advantage of most color and b&w film's extreme latitude . . .

Do you mean "Who needs a reasonably accurate meter"? You sure don't if you only shoot with the sun behind you.
 

Les Sarile

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I see, so it does regulate the voltage from being too high. Then once the battery gets weaker to below 1.35v then what happens? The battery test function would show the needle not going into the pass test box. I think this is the ideal solution actually.

Essentially, the SRT's meter sees a mercury battery and it drops from there as usual. Not sure what the battery test cutoff is but it too will respond as if a mercury battery is installed.
 
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