Old computers learning new tricks - Zen and the art of computer upgrades

[koraks]

And I don't believe it's possible without reinstalling Win 11 because it contains thousands of references to where executable files and all the associated other data for programs/apps are.

Sure you can. Clone the disk. Then uninstall all the apps that you want to put on the other drive. Then reinstall those apps. The Windows install itself will remain mostly unaffected.

 

[MattKing]

Sure you can. Clone the disk. Then uninstall all the apps that you want to put on the other drive. Then reinstall those apps. The Windows install itself will remain mostly unaffected.

I expect that the issue is that @Agulliver doubts that there will be enough room on the target SSD he wants to purchase/use for everything on the originating HDD.

 

[Ben Hutcherson]

I will look into that, but I believe that I have to reboot every time I want to work on the digital photographs. I have a very large number of exposures and that route, if it works could be awkward.

Why would you need to do that?

Once you have installed a current OS, you can use it as your main OS for everything including editing provided that your software will run on the OS you're using.

 

[xkaes]

It seems like every time I end up with a NEW computer problem, actually finding information about it is difficult -- describing what the problem is, and find finding the REAL root of the problem to solve it.

I've just discovered that my all-of-a-sudden, constant "can't write to memory" problems is do to yet another underlying Windows component that I didn't know about.

Windows indexes all of the files on a hard drive. I'm not referring to the File Allocation Table. Windows also uses an invisible, background program that's running all the time, and keeps an index of all the files on the hard drives in RAM. Microsoft calls it Search Indexing Service (cidaemon.exe). It allows for finding files FAST, but it uses up memory. And, of course, the error message is of no use in solving the problem. You're options are to get more RAM (I'm already MAXXED OUT), turn OFF indexing (and slow down file access), or reduce the number of files (no can do).

I spent a day figuring it all out, and now I have to switch to another computer that allows for more RAM.

 

[Ben Hutcherson]

I already upgraded the graphics card to run the most recent os that can (without using that patcher) run on it. It's still doing what I want it to do, Firefox updates, so I don't need it getting any more recent.

Mine only has a single CPU, although it's the best one I could put in it. I paid ~400 for this machine 6 or 7 years ago - it was definitely worth that. People are still trying to sell them for that price. You can get a trash can for a bit more - but you can't stuff that full of hard drives...

I think Apple actually surprised a lot of us(I'm a bit of an Apple nerd...) when they officially endorsed upgrade with a GPU swap on these systems. I took it as a tacit admission that the trash can really just wasn't doing it for a lot of users, and they basically gave official upgrades to these technically obsolete systems.

I picked up a trashcan about two years ago just out of curiosity. I use it as an office desktop since it's still plenty fast for light use and looks nice sitting on my desk, but I wouldn't want to tax it too much. If I really wanted to, I could run it with an eGPU, something that I've seen speed up certain actions in Photoshop/Lightroom(my 2019 iMac will do AI noise reduction about twice as fast on the eGPU I have as on the built in one) but I don't really need that for what I do with that particular computer.

And yes, I think the hard drive capacity, among other things, is a big selling point for these. There's no shortage of power on tap, and I've known people to add SATA cards and stuff the optical bay full of them also.

It's really one of Apple's best designs ever, IMO.

 

[koraks]

I expect that the issue is that @Agulliver doubts that there will be enough room on the target SSD he wants to purchase/use for everything on the originating HDD.

IDK; I think it should be fairly easy to clean up the contents of a 2TB drive (perhaps using some form of online or offline backup, albeit temporarily) so that the contents will fit a new 1TB SSD. These are quite affordable currently.

@xkaes there are occasional performance issues associated with file indexing services on Windows. They can generally be fixed without resorting to draconian measures like replacing the hardware. Sorry to hear about your issues; they can take a little time to investigate and to resolve.

 

[loccdor]

And if anyone's feeling nostalgic, it's possible to boot up Windows 3.1 or 95 using the DosBox emulator.

 

[Sean]

I'm running one of the M4 Macminis now, gotta say, I've never used anything with this level of bang for buck ($599 US !). Apple silicon is pretty insane. I'm way beyond overkill with this tiny device. It might be the best overall desktop they've made yet.

"A complex PSD with dozens of layers might reach 2-5GB in size. The base M4 can still work with these, but performance degrades if the file size exceeds available memory (around 10-12GB)"

My RAW files are only 60 MB. So far I've had mass amounts of stuff running, files open etc, no sense of lag ever.

 

[Don_ih]

Cloning my C: drive would be easy but I don't want to do that as I can't justify the expense of a 2TB SSD.

What I am thinking about is keeping the HDD for my audio, video, photos & documents and putting the OS onto a separate SSD (the laptop can have both). And I don't believe it's possible without reinstalling Win 11 because it contains thousands of references to where executable files and all the associated other data for programs/apps are.

That works and, like I said already, installing Windows again is a snap - and a clean install will work better, since it has all the fixes integrated and hasn't been congested with garbage.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Why would you need to do that?

Once you have installed a current OS, you can use it as your main OS for everything including editing provided that your software will run on the OS you're using.

Good to know. However I am using only four processors with a slow memory bus and slow memory. It already takes minutes to boot up with full memory and all operations are slow. I will be moving to 60 processors, full memory, a separate 2 TB drive for Time Machine only and a separate 2 TB drive for the digital images only.

 

[Ivo Stunga]

and hasn't been congested with garbage.

Except the garbage Microsoft is shamelessly packing in for you - including the spyware called Microsoft Copilot. And many other "services", ads and "features" you want and need so badly. A bad case of shameless commercial bloat and then some.

Yes, you can uninstall it, but it'll be back with some future update - like it or not. Guaranteed. Because Microsoft is in-control and you're essentially renting the OS for a full price.
I've visited some Microsoft presentations where they're advertising their OS to schools, for example. The entitlement and "I know better" attitude just oozes from them like a black, corrosive, monopolistic goo. Not pretty and I totally don't support it.

I use offline Lightroom on a ~13 year old computer and am not complaining. So I second the cheap PC route. An SSD and 16GB of RAM makes it work like a charm. Windows 10 is the last MS OS I'll use for personal computing.

Windows 11 settings are fragmented and altered beyond any need and recognition + feels incomplete and introduces many additional clicks for every-day tasks. Yet I'm forced to use it because according to Microsoft and I quote: "You need to update!" (regarding hardware). No. I don't and won't because a corporation says so. I'll seek another OS and be done with MS for good. If MS introduces a steep Windows 11 settings learning curve, I might as well spend that energy on learning Linux instead and be much happier doing so - taking full control back and no bloat/spyware preinstalled!

Today I'm testing out Linux Mint as I'm totally fed up with that Microsoft behavior, forced Trusted Platform (forced e-waste) and other BS. Switching to Linux is stupid easy and I can run Windows-only apps on a virtual machine if I need it as enough is enough.


Happy resistance and editing on the cheap!

 

[koraks]

It's always a matter of time before threads like these spiral down into some form of "system X is total crap, platform Y is waaaay better!"
And then from there, it's only a matter of time before a moderator needs to lock the thread.

 

[Ivo Stunga]

I'd argue that the arguments I've provided are way outside the scope of such activity you mention. It's downright unacceptable, dangerous and harmful to environment and your privacy. Thus an alternate OS must be sought-after.

Windows is used in corporate setting the most, in schools, hospitals, kindergartens and so on. How is forced Copilot compatible with that level of sensitive data?
Did I install Copilot in teacher PC's? No. Did I installed Skype, Cortana, Xbox, Candy Crush and whatnot? No. Does this have any place in workplace PC? No. Yet, MS installs that on every PC out there running Windows 10/11.

Computers haven't advanced that much for 10 years or so, making old hardware very capable if artificial criteria is not invented to force obsolescence on them - like Trusted Platform Module thingy. How's that compatible with greenwashing and reduced carbon emissions?

 

[koraks]

I gave a hint. I think all of us would appreciate it if you picked up on it so those of us who want, can continue the discussion on hardware upgrade paths.

 

[Ivo Stunga]

I understand and respect that.
But talking hardware one cannot avoid software - without it hardware does absolutely nothing. And if software starts to limit hardware for artificial reasons - like Windows 11 "requirements"... Hence my 5 cents on that.

And it's to the point that old hardware is very capable to kicks ass at photo editing - unless artificial restrictions from OS are at play

 

[koraks]

It's OK to discuss software, and I also understand (and sympathize with) the criticisms of the policies of some software manufacturers (the TPM requirement is annoying to say the least, and ethically dubious); don't get me wrong. It's just that rants tend to trigger responses of similar vehemence, and from there on it tends to go downhill; that's all.

 

[Agulliver]

If we're having a thread on old computers doing new tricks (good idea to split this from the other thread)....my Sinclair ZX Spectrum isn't capable of posting to these forums but it *does* have an ethernet adaptor and I go online with it, there are specific sites designed to be compatible with the ancient 8-bit machine as well as irc and Telnet clients. Heck, I can even go onto a couple of PLATO servers and *that* system dates back to the 1960s.

My Sinclair ZX81, which celebrates it's 43rd birthday in under a month, doesn't go online but has an SD card adaptor with a 4Gb card....4Gb of storage was unimaginable when that machine was launched.

Back to looking at slightly more current hardware. If I add an SSD to my laptop and reinstall the OS onto the SSD....I'll need to install all the programs too and that really is a pain. Though, it's no more a pain than buying a new laptop and doing the same. That's something I miss about Win 3.xx it was so simple you could actually transfer the OS to another drive, fix a few links manually and off you went. The last time I manually rebuilt a broken OS installation was Win 95 and that was an overnight task. Thereafter it just became impossible.

I own all the software I use so no subscriptions or anything. Everything can be reinstalled. But last night the wife's laptop screen failed and as it's even older than mine, I guess the priority is a new laptop for her.

 

[Don_ih]

I'll need to install all the programs too and that really is a pain. Though, it's no more a pain than buying a new laptop and doing the same.

When you get a new laptop, it tends to have a lot of junkware on it. So it's less of a pain reinstalling a clean version of the operating system and installing the software you want.

As for Microsoft's built-in junk - you deal with that however you see fit. They'll continue to make the OS more intrusive and "helpful".

 

[loccdor]

I'm using the newest version of Gimp in Windows 10 and while mostly satisfied there's still the odd kink to work out. It used to be rotating an image by a degree or so took several minutes and sometimes hung the program. Now, it seems they've fixed that for R, G, B images, but it's continuing to be an issue if I'm in B&W. Could be an interaction with my hardware or OS that other people don't experience.

 

[Agulliver]

The biggest problem I have with Win 11 is the process "windows module installer" starts usually just when I want to do some CPU intensive task, and doesn't like to be stopped. I'm OK with the updates but there seems to be no way to get the OS to ask me "is now convenient?". Win 10 was better in that regard. I did find that my HP laptop came with a load of bloatware which i really did not need or use. The other thing Windows does is update Microsoft Edge. I do not know any human being who uses Microsoft Edge.

Somewhere I have a floppy disc with Netscape 1.1 and WINSOCK.DLL on it. Back then that and a modem was all one needed to get online.

 

[koraks]

Win 10 was better in that regard.

This also does updates in the background, and not just when it tells/ask you it will. IDK if the update engine actually changed all that much since Win7.

 

[Agulliver]

This also does updates in the background, and not just when it tells/ask you it will. IDK if the update engine actually changed all that much since Win7.

It seems to me that Win 11 update uses *vastly* more CPU, RAM and HDD resources than win 10 and 7 updates did. I used 10 on the same laptop before upgrading it to 11 after about 12 months. I have no issues with 11 running when it chooses not to update....but the update process - which seems to be more frequent than weekly - renders the machine to being a doorstop for up to three hours. Spousal unit still has Win 10 on her laptop, as do I on my older laptop that I've taken to work...and they just don't do this.

I don't *think* there's a problem with my laptop.

 

[koraks]

It seems to me that Win 11 update uses *vastly* more CPU, RAM and HDD resources than win 10 and 7 updates did.

I've seen the exact same machine fall to its knees due to a wayward Win update (on any version, really) and then perform entirely normally after the actual underlying issue was fixed. Win-Update related issues often have deeper rooted causes. The resource problems associated with WinUpdate in those cases are just the symptom. If you google for windows update performance related problems, you'll find oodles of problem descriptions across all major Win versions with a vast range of possible causes.

 

[Pieter12]

I live in the Mac world, so I am blissfully ignorant about what computers running Windows and Linux might offer. As of today, the best deal out there IMO would be to get a refurbished 27" retina 5K iMac Pro or iMac, maxed out: 512GB RAM & 2TB SSD, 10-core Xeon for the Pro or 128GB, 2TB, 10-core i9 for the iMac). The only downside is if Adobe or Apple future upgrades would require an M processor. Right now, the iMac 27" will run the most current system and Adobe software. For some reason, the current iMacs are limited to 24" 4.5K displays and candy colors.

 

[MTGseattle]

I have on old HP laptop loaded with WinXP here, another older laptop with Win8, a Third "nice" laptop running Win10 and an HP desktop running Win10. I get messages on both Win10 machines saying they are incapable of running Win11. I've thought about jumping over to Mac with that new Mac mini, but can anyone report on a switch to a 2024 mac that is using an old scanner.

I'd also welcome any other strategies. I don't really "need" a desktop, but I do desperately need a half-decent monitor (I think I'll get one of the Asus proArt models), and I would need a laptop that can run a separate monitor smoothly.

@Pieter12 are there some maxed out models in the refurb que? I can take a look. That is where Apple really bites us in the behind is with upgrade prices. My brother-in-law and I "built" a $14k Macpro out of sheer curiosity.