Playing Around With Flic Film Black/White & Green and Gainer's PC-TEA developers

[Craig]

Since Youtube started saturating so many videos with ads I have quit watching anything there; it's become a waste of time. Once channel I liked had ads every 2 min so on a 20 min video it ended up taking twice as long to watch it. I really didn't like how chopped up everything became.

My preference is to come here to read about a photographic process, at least I can read it in one go without being interrupted.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Since Youtube started saturating so many videos with ads I have quit watching anything there; it's become a waste of time. Once channel I liked had ads every 2 min so on a 20 min video it ended up taking twice as long to watch it. I really didn't like how chopped up everything became.

My preference is to come here to read about a photographic process, at least I can read it in one go without being interrupted.

Kind of like TV... Many creators on YouTube work pretty hard to provide free content. Ads are necessary, so that they can at least get a bit of income. I don't make money, because I just don't get the traffic. But that's okay, as I'm having a blast! Most of the ads that pop up can be skipped after 5 seconds, anyways... It's only the ads that don't have that option that are annoying for me... the Youtuber has control over that. It's all about revenue to them.
Anyways, this is off topic. Bad moderator. Bad boy!
PC-TEA is nice developer that I'm enjoying using. Few ingredients, easy to mix up, lasts forever. FX-55 has also perked my interest...

 

[Corn_Zhou]

Kind of like TV... Many creators on YouTube work pretty hard to provide free content. Ads are necessary, so that they can at least get a bit of income. I don't make money, because I just don't get the traffic. But that's okay, as I'm having a blast! Most of the ads that pop up can be skipped after 5 seconds, anyways... It's only the ads that don't have that option that are annoying for me... the Youtuber has control over that. It's all about revenue to them.
Anyways, this is off topic. Bad moderator. Bad boy!
PC-TEA is nice developer that I'm enjoying using. Few ingredients, easy to mix up, lasts forever. FX-55 has also perked my interest...

FX-55 could be made into a more concentrated two solution, making it more convenient to use and last longer.

FX-55.C (Concentrate)

Solution A
Potassium Carbonate 80g
Sodium Bicarbonate 28g
Sodium Sulfite (Anhydrous) 100g
Sodium Bisulfite 48g
Water to 1L

Solution B
Phenidone 0.4g
Ascorbic Acid 4.64g
Glycol to 100mL
Use: 1+1+40=FX-55 working solution

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

FX-55 could be made into a more concentrated two solution, making it more convenient to use and last longer.

FX-55.C (Concentrate)

Solution A
Potassium Carbonate 80g
Sodium Bicarbonate 28g
Sodium Sulfite (Anhydrous) 100g
Sodium Bisulfite 48g
Water to 1L

Solution B
Phenidone 0.4g
Ascorbic Acid 4.64g
Glycol to 100mL
Use: 1+1+40=FX-55 working solution

I've been using Phenidone/Glycol version for part B, and have kept Sodium Ascorbate separate. You're using Ascorbic Acid?

 

[Corn_Zhou]

I've been using Phenidone/Glycol version for part B, and have kept Sodium Ascorbate separate. You're using Ascorbic Acid?

Yes, the original formula had an alternative Ascorbic Acid version which suggested using more Bicarbonate to balance the acidity of AA. It seems to work fine.

 

[John Wiegerink]

FX-55 could be made into a more concentrated two solution, making it more convenient to use and last longer.

FX-55.C (Concentrate)

Solution A
Potassium Carbonate 80g
Sodium Bicarbonate 28g
Sodium Sulfite (Anhydrous) 100g
Sodium Bisulfite 48g
Water to 1L

Solution B
Phenidone 0.4g
Ascorbic Acid 4.64g
Glycol to 100mL
Use: 1+1+40=FX-55 working solution

I always like the idea of using concentrates since they sometimes seem to add to the shelf life, but your formula above has me a little puzzled. You have a total of 1 Liter of solution A and just 100 mL for solution B. My question is why make up such a large quantity of solution A? You are using it with the equal amount of B. !+!+40 and that's going to leave you with a lot of solution A left when you run out of solution B. Is there a particular reason for mixing up so much more solution A compared to solution B?

 

[Corn_Zhou]

I always like the idea of using concentrates since they sometimes seem to add to the shelf life, but your formula above has me a little puzzled. You have a total of 1 Liter of solution A and just 100 mL for solution B. My question is why make up such a large quantity of solution A? You are using it with the equal amount of B. !+!+40 and that's going to leave you with a lot of solution A left when you run out of solution B. Is there a particular reason for mixing up so much more solution A compared to solution B?

It's for ease of calculation and serves no practical reasons.
A 1:1 formula should be:

FX-55.C (Concentrate)

Solution A
Potassium Carbonate 8g
Sodium Bicarbonate 2.8g
Sodium Sulfite (Anhydrous) 10g
Sodium Bisulfite 4.8g
Water to 100mL

Solution B
Phenidone 0.4g
Ascorbic Acid 4.64g
Glycol to 100mL
Use: 1+1+40=FX-55 working solution

 

[albada]

I checked three sources of the formula for FX-55, plus my notes, and all of them have 0.1 g of phenidone per litre of working solution (not concentrate). Your formula would result in 0.01 g of phenidone -- 1/10 of the formula's amount. The same is probably true of ascorbic acid. I suggest re-checking the numbers for solution B. Here are three sources of the formula:

FX-55

pictorialplanet.com

FX-55 (film developer) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Digitaltruth Photo - Photographic Chemical Formulas and Technical Data

www.digitaltruth.com

Mark

 

[Corn_Zhou]

I checked three sources of the formula for FX-55, plus my notes, and all of them have 0.1 g of phenidone per litre of working solution (not concentrate). Your formula would result in 0.01 g of phenidone -- 1/10 of the formula's amount. The same is probably true of ascorbic acid. I suggest re-checking the numbers for solution B. Here are three sources of the formula:

FX-55

pictorialplanet.com

FX-55 (film developer) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Digitaltruth Photo - Photographic Chemical Formulas and Technical Data

www.digitaltruth.com

Mark

There might be some misunderstandings here.
The B solution I suggested was 100mL.
At 1+1+40 that could be diluted to 4 liters of working solution.
That makes it 0.1g of Phenidone per liter which matches the original formula.

 

[John Wiegerink]

It's for ease of calculation and serves no practical reasons.
A 1:1 formula should be:

FX-55.C (Concentrate)

Solution A
Potassium Carbonate 8g
Sodium Bicarbonate 2.8g
Sodium Sulfite (Anhydrous) 10g
Sodium Bisulfite 4.8g
Water to 100mL

Solution B
Phenidone 0.4g
Ascorbic Acid 4.64g
Glycol to 100mL
Use: 1+1+40=FX-55 working solution

Thanks, I was just curious and now my curiosity has been satisfied.

 

[halfaman]

I am curious to try PC-TEA, but for the first attemp I would like to avoid heating TEA up to 125º C and the long process of getting ascorbic acid in solution.

Is there any problem to prepare the concentrate in water for inmediate use? Ascorbic acid and KBr are soluble in water, and I plan to use dimezone-S instead of phenidone which is said to be also soluble to some extent (7.1 gr/liter at 20º C). Then mix working solution 1+50+50 of the water concentrate and TEA (for 500 ml will be 10 ml of each one).

 

[Corn_Zhou]

I am curious to try PC-TEA, but for the first attemp I would like to avoid heating TEA up to 125º C to dissolve ascorbic acid.

Is there any problem to prepare the concentrate in water for inmediate use? Ascorbic acid and KBr are soluble in water, and I plan to use dimezone-S instead of phenidone which is said to be also soluble to some extent (7,1 gr/liter at 20º C). Then mix working solution with 1+50+50 of the water concentrate and TEA (for 500 ml will be 10 ml of each one).

I think in that case you would be better off using PC-Glycol or some formulas suggested in the PC-512 post.
Ascorbic Acid is soluble in water but would breakdown if there is trace amount of metal ions so a waterless concentrate would be desirable.

 

[halfaman]

I think in that case you would be better off using PC-Glycol or some formulas suggested in the PC-512 post.
Ascorbic Acid is soluble in water but would breakdown if there is trace amount of metal ions so a waterless concentrate would be desirable.

I know it is not a good idea for long term storage, that is why I said to do it just for inmediate use on the first trial. If I really like the results and keep going I would have to do a TEA concentrate.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I am curious to try PC-TEA, but for the first attemp I would like to avoid heating TEA up to 125º C and the long process of getting ascorbic acid in solution.

Is there any problem to prepare the concentrate in water for inmediate use? Ascorbic acid and KBr are soluble in water, and I plan to use dimezone-S instead of phenidone which is said to be also soluble to some extent (7.1 gr/liter at 20º C). Then mix working solution 1+50+50 of the water concentrate and TEA (for 500 ml will be 10 ml of each one).

When I mix up Pyrocat-HD, I always dissolve the required amount of Phenidone in a bit of Isopropyl Alcohol, before adding it. Goes in easily. Heat up the TEA to say about 50C, and give it a whirl.

 

[chuckroast]

Are they the same?

Any thoughts on how PC-TEA and Pyrocat-HD compare or differ?

Is it reasonable to assume the PC-TEA is a good candidate for long seminstand developing, given its claimed low aerial oxidation rate?

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Any thoughts on how PC-TEA and Pyrocat-HD compare or differ?

Is it reasonable to assume the PC-TEA is a good candidate for long seminstand developing, given its claimed low aerial oxidation rate?

Haven't really given it much thought yet but... it's on the to do list!

 

[ntenny]

I am curious to try PC-TEA, but for the first attemp I would like to avoid heating TEA up to 125º C and the long process of getting ascorbic acid in solution.

I’ve found this concern to be overstated a bit. It is practically necessary to heat the TEA up, it takes some stirring and some time for the ascorbic acid to dissolve, but I don’t think you have to go to 125° C. I usually use a boiling-water bath around a Mason jar, but I’ve used a baby-bottle warmer successfully too. Work carefully, don’t use tools that will go back to be used with food, of course, but my experience is that the dissolving process isn’t a big obstacle.

I’m certainly not a chemist, but I don’t see any reason that going directly to a one-shot water solution wouldn’t work in principle. You would need to measure a very small amount of phenidone with reasonable accuracy, though.

-NT

 

[albada]

There might be some misunderstandings here.
The B solution I suggested was 100mL.
At 1+1+40 that could be diluted to 4 liters of working solution.
That makes it 0.1g of Phenidone per liter which matches the original formula.

You're right. *I* was off by a factor of 10 due to 100ml versus 1000ml. Never mind...

 

[John Wiegerink]

It's for ease of calculation and serves no practical reasons.
A 1:1 formula should be:

FX-55.C (Concentrate)

Solution A
Potassium Carbonate 8g
Sodium Bicarbonate 2.8g
Sodium Sulfite (Anhydrous) 10g
Sodium Bisulfite 4.8g
Water to 100mL

Solution B
Phenidone 0.4g
Ascorbic Acid 4.64g
Glycol to 100mL
Use: 1+1+40=FX-55 working solution

corn_zhou,
Just one more quick question. How would you make your version of FX-55 if you only had Sodium Ascorbate, which is all I have where I'm at at the moment.

 

[pentaxuser]

Heat up the TEA to say about 50C, and give it a whirl. That is a quote from Andy in #39. This is 75C below what halfaman believes he needs the temperature to be which is a massive difference.

I assume that 50C was what Andy used in his video and if so this seemed to work fine and has to be much safer so why the need for 125C or anything even close to it? A spill on even gloves becomes serious at 125C

pentaxuser

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Heat up the TEA to say about 50C, and give it a whirl. That is a quote from Andy in #39. This is 75C below what halfaman believes he needs the temperature to be which is a massive difference.

I assume that 50C was what Andy used in his video and if so this seemed to work fine and has to be much safer so why the need for 125C or anything even close to it? A spill on even gloves becomes serious at 125C

pentaxuser

In the video, I started with TEA at 120C. Phenidone will go into solution easy at this high temperature, but that's pretty hot. In post #39, I was suggesting to dissolve Phenidone in Isopropyl Alcohol first, warm up the TEA to 60C, then add the Alcohol dissolved Phenidone. That's how I get Phenidone into Pyrocat-HD, at 50C. 120C is really, really hot, and one must take care not only from the fumes, but from handling the container... it's HOT! The next time I mix up some PC-TEA, I will try it this way.

 

[pentaxuser]

In the video, I started with TEA at 120C. Phenidone will go into solution easy at this high temperature, but that's pretty hot. In post #39, I was suggesting to dissolve Phenidone in Isopropyl Alcohol first, warm up the TEA to 60C, then add the Alcohol dissolved Phenidone. That's how I get Phenidone into Pyrocat-HD, at 50C. 120C is really, really hot, and one must take care not only from the fumes, but from handling the container... it's HOT! The next time I mix up some PC-TEA, I will try it this way.

Thanks Andy Certainly if IPA results in 60C being then OK it seems a worthwhile solution to the alternative of 120C where a slight mishap might have permanent consequences to human skin

pentaxuser

 

[P C Headland]

I've dissolved the phenidone in IPA (I've used methylated spirits previously) before mixing into the TEA and not noticed any reduction in developer performance. With the TEA at 50-60C, it doesn't take too long to stir in the vitamin C powder.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I've dissolved the phenidone in IPA (I've used methylated spirits previously) before mixing into the TEA and not noticed any reduction in developer performance. With the TEA at 50-60C, it doesn't take too long to stir in the vitamin C powder.

I figured as much. Thanks for that! No more scalding me fingers!

 

[Corn_Zhou]

corn_zhou,
Just one more quick question. How would you make your version of FX-55 if you only had Sodium Ascorbate, which is all I have where I'm at at the moment.

In that case the only solution is to make a water based concentrate.
Some people say Phenidone keeps well enough in a slightly acidic solution along with some sulfite but Fenton reaction would quickly kill the ascorbate.
You would need distilled water and cleating agents like DPTA5Na or EDTA2Na.
A possible formula would be:

FX-55.CW (Concentrate-Water based)

Solution A
Potassium Carbonate 8g
Sodium Bicarbonate 0.6g
Sodium Sulfite (Anhydrous) 10g
Water to 100mL

Solution B
Cleating agents (DPTA5Na/EDTA2Na) 1g -----Always add this first
Phenidone 0.4g
Ascorbate 5.2g
Sodium Bisulfite 4.8g
Water to 100mL