Pre soak/pre wash why or why not?

[MattKing]

Kodak's Z131 document (C-41) explicitly mentions, in bold, not to pre-soak with rotary-tube processing.

I've found out that pre-soak and using stop bath (which is also not a standard C-41 step) helps me with uneven development of large format C-41 film. I feel like there is little point in sticking religiously to the instructions when they clearly don't work (for me)...

Thanks for the Z-131 reference.

When replenishing developer on a small scale.To filter out processing bi products you could pour the used developer through a coffee filter before adding it back into your stock .

I filter my X-Tol working solution from time to time with a re-usable coffee filter.
Not to remove the development biproducts - they are necessary for a properly running replenishment regime - but instead to remove the small amount of sludge that can build up. That sludge is likely to be mostly gelatin.

For clarity: in a properly running replenishment regime, it is necessary that the biproducts be present in a concentration that is stable and consistent. Replenishment is designed to remove any excess of those biproducts, while also replacing any active components as they are used up.

 

[Paul Howell]

For clarity: in a properly running replenishment regime, it is necessary that the biproducts be present in a concentration that is stable and consistent. Replenishment is designed to remove any excess of those biproducts, while also replacing any active components as they are used up.For clarity: in a properly running replenishment regime, it is necessary that the biproducts be present in a concentration that is stable and consistent. Replenishment is designed to remove any excess of those biproducts, while also replacing any active components as they are used up.

So a coffee filter is fairly porous at 20 micrometers, while a standard lab filter is .7 to -100 UM. what does a coffee filter filter out? Seems to me that you need to use a lab grade filter. Even then it only removes solids.

 

[MattKing]

So a coffee filter is fairly porous at 20 micrometers, while a standard lab filter is .7 to -100 UM. what does a coffee filter filter out? Seems to me that you need to use a lab grade filter.

It would obviously be more completely filtered.
But it isn't certain that the sludge is itself deleterious, so I am content to merely remove the majority of it with the filter I have at hand.

 

[jazzmandjango]

Ilford recommend that no pre soak is necessary for their films. I have read on this forum, some people like to pre soak their film, why?

I just do what Ilford tells me!

 

[mshchem]

Best practices are ignoring the film and equipment (developing) manufacturers instructions and just striking out on your own. Then whatever you do, try doing it different every time. Never develop in solutions above "medium rare" on your meat thermometer!

Oh, I jest (just jest?)

 

[Augustus Caesar]

I just do what Ilford tells me!

The trouble with not pre-wetting with spiral reels is that they too-easily trap bubbles. Letting the reels soak for a while (with agitation) ensures that the entire film surface gets wet. This allows the developer to "glide on" smoothly, due to capillary action. Why has no-one mentioned capillary action before? There is no disadvantage whatsoever to pre-wetting, so why not do it, just to be safe?

 

[brbo]

The trouble with not pre-wetting with spiral reels is that they too-easily trap bubbles. Letting the reels soak for a while (with agitation) ensures that the entire film surface gets wet. This allows the developer to "glide on" smoothly, due to capillary action. Why has no-one mentioned capillary action before? There is no disadvantage whatsoever to pre-wetting, so why not do it, just to be safe?

I pre-soak for C-41 and don't for BW (because there is no need (for me, others might feel differently)), so there is that. But as to the question why "not just pre-soak"... Well, some manufacturers advise against it. I'd imagine there is a reason for that (even though we don't know what that reason is).

 

[MTGseattle]

I also added a pre-wash to my regimen quite early in my years processing my own films and have never seen an issue directly caused by the extra step. I will say that after finally trying 2 rolls of Fomapan in 120 that is definitely the most vivid color dye I have seen so far.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Augustus pointed out a very important reason to pre-wet when using reels, especially for hand inversion drums.

 

[Patrick Robert James]

I don't have a scientific basis for what I do, just experience I guess. I pre-wet when I use my JOBO 3010 for 4x5 with rotary. I've had issues with staining developers if I didn't. Usually streaks. With 35 and 120 in SS tanks I don't pre-wet, usually.

I use metal reels these days but I still have my JOBO 1500 tanks. I stopped using them because of the trapped air bells with 120 and inversion agitation. I might go back and try pre-wetting with those and 120. So much easier to load. I used to use LFN in the developer to rid myself of the air bells until LFN changed and it wasn't usable in developers anymore.

 

[John Wiegerink]

I don't have a scientific basis for what I do, just experience I guess. I pre-wet when I use my JOBO 3010 for 4x5 with rotary. I've had issues with staining developers if I didn't. Usually streaks. With 35 and 120 in SS tanks I don't pre-wet, usually.

I use metal reels these days but I still have my JOBO 1500 tanks. I stopped using them because of the trapped air bells with 120 and inversion agitation. I might go back and try pre-wetting with those and 120. So much easier to load. I used to use LFN in the developer to rid myself of the air bells until LFN changed and it wasn't usable in developers anymore.

What change in LFN made it unusable/non-compatible in film developers?

 

[john_s]

What change in LFN made it unusable/non-compatible in film developers?

and is there a "best" wetting agent for a pre-rinse?

 

[AnselMortensen]

Ilford doesn't recommend a pre-wash.

A pre-wash is mandatory with a Stearman Press SP-810.

So, when I process Ilford films in my SP-810...
I use Schrödinal.

 

[Rick A]

I don't have a scientific basis for what I do, just experience I guess. I pre-wet when I use my JOBO 3010 for 4x5 with rotary. I've had issues with staining developers if I didn't. Usually streaks. With 35 and 120 in SS tanks I don't pre-wet, usually.

I use metal reels these days but I still have my JOBO 1500 tanks. I stopped using them because of the trapped air bells with 120 and inversion agitation. I might go back and try pre-wetting with those and 120. So much easier to load. I used to use LFN in the developer to rid myself of the air bells until LFN changed and it wasn't usable in developers anymore.

When did this change to LFN happen? I have an ancient bottle from the 70's, one from the 90's and a current one. They all work the same and keep my developer from foaming, it was never intended to disperse air bells.

I pre soak specifically to avoid air bells, plus with rotary processing it helps to temper the drum to help maintain temperature.

 

[John Wiegerink]

and is there a "best" wetting agent for a pre-rinse?

LFN is/was my favorite wetting agent. I'm still scratching my head on this one, since I didn't know there was a change. Of course, my still half full bottle is more than several years old, which might be before any change. If there was one????

 

[Rick A]

and is there a "best" wetting agent for a pre-rinse?

You don't need a wetting agent for pre rinse, just water. I use tap water. I use LFN in distilled water with a capfull of 91% isopropyl alcohol as my final wash. It speeds up drying.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

The trouble with not pre-wetting with spiral reels is that they too-easily trap bubbles. Letting the reels soak for a while (with agitation) ensures that the entire film surface gets wet. This allows the developer to "glide on" smoothly, due to capillary action. Why has no-one mentioned capillary action before? There is no disadvantage whatsoever to pre-wetting, so why not do it, just to be safe?

but there are potential disadvantages to prewetting, plus the obvious waste of time if it proves unnecessary

 

[brbo]

but there are potential disadvantages to prewetting, plus the obvious waste of time if it proves unnecessary

Yes, but it seems to me that people more often solve a problem by pre-soaking than introduce a problem by doing it.

 

[John Wiegerink]

Hmmmm!!! I just did a search trying to find documentation of the change in chemical makeup of LFN and I just can't find anything stating there was or when a change took place. Can some kind soul point me in the right direction.

 

[Alessandro Serrao]

Ilford recommend that no pre soak is necessary for their films. I have read on this forum, some people like to pre soak their film, why?

Because it's an hard-to-die practice of no usefulness. Please trust Ilford on that.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I have not found that I need to filter replenish XTOL.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Alessandro - why would I blindly trust Ilford on that point when, over and over again, I proven just the opposite to myself. I presoak - no problems; I don't, lots of problems. And I'm certain I'm not alone in that respect.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Alessandro - why would I blindly trust Ilford on that point when, over and over again, I proven just the opposite to myself. I presoak - no problems; I don't, lots of problems. And I'm certain I'm not alone in that respect.

I too prewash Ilford films too and doing that has never caused any problems. Doing such keeps the anti-halation dyes out of my replenished XTOL.

 

[John Wiegerink]

Alessandro - why would I blindly trust Ilford on that point when, over and over again, I proven just the opposite to myself. I presoak - no problems; I don't, lots of problems. And I'm certain I'm not alone in that respect.

+1

 

[John Wiegerink]

I have not found that I need to filter replenish XTOL.

I never did on my very first batch of Xtol-R and after slightly more than two years I started seeing floaters and other junk in the bottom of my class Boston brown jug. Now I filter everything that goes back into my new batch of Adox XT3-R.