Reflx Lab says their respooled films could be discontinued

[mshchem]

The remjet makes a significant and positive difference w.r.t. image quality though. If Cinestill is what remains of Vision3 available for still shooters, I'm out and will probably cut back on CN photography and go back to C41 for the rest. Or digital of course.



Any firm is totally free to refuse to sell to whomever they like.
Any two firms are also totally free to come to agreements in which they impede each other's access to certain markets. It's very common, too.

I question if Remjet makes a huge difference in still photos, I understand the anti-halation bit, 35mm still cameras don't have innards that create a lot of reflections. I will not argue the point.

I'm just a loyalist to EKCo produced/KA distributed color negative film. I'm also still interested in color prints from my enlargers so this also puts me into the Ektar/Portra camp.

 

[Disconnekt]

Yes and no. In the film market where there are so many manufacturers and distributors, you're right. But in an exclusive market, a company could be violating US monopoly legislation. For example, let's say nVidia only sold AI products to Amazon locking out everyone else like Apple, Adobe, etc from buying their product. There would surely be a lawsuit by these other firms claiming monopolization of an industry. The US government might even sue.

Yeah, to me Kodak is pretty much has a monopoly when it comes to color film, especially since ~95%+ of available (fresh) color film is just Kodak

- Fuji is pretty much out of the film market (having other people make their film & rebadge some films with Kodak)
- Ilford/Harman just has Phoenix
- Orwo just has the 2 that came out last year
- Lomography has other people make some of their films & rebadge the rest (Kodak, Orwo)

 

[Patrick Robert James]

Seems to me it isn't a coincidence that the takeover of KA and Kodak's refusal to sell MPF to low volume users happened subsequently. KA wants to put a kabash on the competition since they apparently don't get a piece of MP sales.

You can't even get 35mm MPF at B&H anymore but they still sell other sizes. That could also be because of demand though. Time will tell.

 

[pentaxuser]

On the other hand, if EK came out with a new model that reduced the sale of its different models and kept KA from selling it, KA would have a claim since EK violated its exclusivity contract.

Wasn't Wolfram contending that KA has no interest in selling the tiny amount of the film market that the respooled film can be sold to and I had contended that as long as this small amount did not involve any cost on KA's part then I couldn't see why this would matter to KA or to whomsoever KA, as was, has sold its interest

It just appeared to me that the film consumer was not being well served by what appears to be an agreement designed not to work in the consumer's favour in this instance and yet does little or no harm to the KA position

Control of the market by means of restrictions in favour of one entity is always the goal of that entity but this needs to be kept in check by rules and regulations for the consumer's sake doesn't it

I can only speak for myself of course but I'd hate to be in a position where we, as consumers and as society ended up with unrestricted market control by monopolies

I fear that some of those may then exhibit behaviour that was not very nice

pentaxuser

 

[Agulliver]

One thing I don't understand....why is KA upset about people like us using Vision 3 derived stocks for still photography if the volume is insignificant?

And if the volume is in fact not insignificant, why not simply sell via KA? I doubt most of us would have any problem with buying Kodak branded Vision 3 derived stocks for still photography. Would KA worry that 500T might take away from sales of Portra 800? They're very different films with very different colour paletes.

Anyway, I just ordered some more Candido 800. I hope I am still able to do so when I next need it.

 

[cmacd123]

Any firm is totally free to refuse to sell to whomever they like.
Any two firms are also totally free to come to agreements in which they impede each other's access to certain markets. It's very common, too.

Depending on the Market, In some places two firms colluding to restrict sales of some product could be considered "Restraint of Trade" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restraint_of_trade naturaly many agreements claim to be for other resons.

 

[mshchem]

All this is speculation.

 

[MattKing]

KA were the main motivators behind the re-start of Ektachrome, although the part of the Motion Picture group who support the educational and small volume users were supportive.
And it isn't about KA trying to stop sales of motion picture film.
It is about KA protecting their sales of still film.
The issue around still film application of tungsten balanced movie film wouldn't be practically relevant except for the fact that that film can be used, with filtration, for daylight illuminated scenes.
Almost no-one is using the movie stock for still film use because of the unique characteristics of the film. They are using it to try to get around paying the price for the Kodak branded still film - the price that needs to be charged to keep Kodak branded still film available for purchase.

 

[cmacd123]

I question if Remjet makes a huge difference in still photos, I understand the anti-halation bit, 35mm still cameras don't have innards that create a lot of reflections. I will not argue the point.

the fact that Movie film is designed to be processed by Dedicated labs, with laboratory access to control the chemistry, ALLOWED Eastman Kodak to design the ECN and later ECN2 processes to deal with REM-JET as part of the design of the film. when you are expecting that a less then 1/2 frame Negative will make a contact print that will then be displayed 40feet or more wide you want to have the best posible quality.

C-41 was designed to stand up to processing in Much smaller Labs. the ANTI Halo in most C-41 films is a silver layer (or perhaps a dye layer) under the active emulsion. Sometimes called AHU.

the silver layer will be removed as a byproduct of the bleach stage.

the RemJet also has lubrication and anti-static properties that are Not relevant in Still cameras.

 

[mshchem]

Labs set up to process cine film with remjet aren't setup to process 5 foot lengths of film.

 

[koraks]

I question if Remjet makes a huge difference in still photos

It does. I personally don't prefer to have orange fringes around anything backlit.

I'm also still interested in color prints from my enlargers so this also puts me into the Ektar/Portra camp.

Me too; I only scan Vision3 for digital archiving (quasi-contact print) and technical examples. Its main purpose is to get printed optically, which it does wonderfully well on today's papers.

 

[Agulliver]

RemJet definitely makes a difference. Though for me it's in light reflecting off shiny objects such as microphone stands which doesn't look too bad without the RemJet and sometimes I like it.

 

[Don_ih]

And it isn't about KA trying to stop sales of motion picture film.
It is about KA protecting their sales of still film.

I wonder if it'll work that way in reality? The abundance of respooled motion picture film not only supplied a market, it also helped make one. Ending the sale of that will have the immediate impact of reducing the available supply of products and also removing something that some users may actually prefer. A large part of using film, for a large number of people, is getting an "imperfect" result. Kodak still colour film may be too "perfect" for those people. Such people may drop film entirely. An expensive hobby (fad) really doesn't draw more people in by becoming more expensive. Kodak may ultimately see a drop in sales of film by doing this.

 

[Film-Niko]

I question if Remjet makes a huge difference in still photos,

It does indeed make a huge difference: If you for example compare photos of CineStill 800T without remjet to the original film with remjet, or to standard C-41 films of that sensitivity class, you'll see a very big difference in halation (and sharpness) performance.
The halation effects with light sources of CS 800T are huge.

Concerning the consequences of EK's decision to follow the pressure of KA and terminate these film sales: I am convinced it will be counterproductive for both companies in the mid and long term:
Kodak Alaris' very agressive price policy, which is exploiting their de-facto monopoly for standard C-41 color negative film, has dramatic negative influence on the increasing film markets in the emerging countries (China, Vietnam, Thailand, Indonesia, Philippines, Malaysia, Mexico etc.). In these countries with their much much lower incomes Kodak Alaris price increases destroyed the film revival (the growth trend), which had been extremely strong in these markets.
The respooled Kodak movie film at lower prices was a possibility for many film enthusiasts in these markets to continue shooting film, because it was more affordable. If this possibility is now killed, too, the situation in these huge and very important markets will get even more problematic.

To keep the film revival running these markets are needed!! And these markets need film which is affordable for the customers in these markets. If EK and KA continue to ignore that fact, they both will loose these markets: Either because the film shooters there will switch to digital, or they will switch to future competitors which offer what these markets need (maybe Lucky will fill that market gap for CN film; Foma and Harman are already doing it with their BW offerings Fomapan and Kentmere).

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Seems to me it isn't a coincidence that the takeover of KA and Kodak's refusal to sell MPF to low volume users happened subsequently. KA wants to put a kabash on the competition since they apparently don't get a piece of MP sales.

You can't even get 35mm MPF at B&H anymore but they still sell other sizes. That could also be because of demand though. Time will tell.

It's not film used for movies Alaris objects to. It's when people buy small amounts of it to adapt it as photo film that competes with their exclusive distributorship to sell photo film. That's what they object to. So Eastman will only sell this film to real moviemakers like Hollywood and others who can prove they're using it for movies.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Wasn't Wolfram contending that KA has no interest in selling the tiny amount of the film market that the respooled film can be sold to and I had contended that as long as this small amount did not involve any cost on KA's part then I couldn't see why this would matter to KA or to whomsoever KA, as was, has sold its interest

It just appeared to me that the film consumer was not being well served by what appears to be an agreement designed not to work in the consumer's favour in this instance and yet does little or no harm to the KA position

Control of the market by means of restrictions in favour of one entity is always the goal of that entity but this needs to be kept in check by rules and regulations for the consumer's sake doesn't it

I can only speak for myself of course but I'd hate to be in a position where we, as consumers and as society ended up with unrestricted market control by monopolies

I fear that some of those may then exhibit behaviour that was not very nice

pentaxuser

Stop trying to cut corners and buy Eastman Kodak photo film distributed by Alaris. Alaris has a legal right to protect their market. If you don't like how they run their business, buy another brand.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

One thing I don't understand....why is KA upset about people like us using Vision 3 derived stocks for still photography if the volume is insignificant?

And if the volume is in fact not insignificant, why not simply sell via KA? I doubt most of us would have any problem with buying Kodak branded Vision 3 derived stocks for still photography. Would KA worry that 500T might take away from sales of Portra 800? They're very different films with very different colour paletes.

Anyway, I just ordered some more Candido 800. I hope I am still able to do so when I next need it.

What if they have to drop Portra 800 because too many people are using 500T? I can't imagine there's huge market for it.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

I wonder if it'll work that way in reality? The abundance of respooled motion picture film not only supplied a market, it also helped make one. Ending the sale of that will have the immediate impact of reducing the available supply of products and also removing something that some users may actually prefer. A large part of using film, for a large number of people, is getting an "imperfect" result. Kodak still colour film may be too "perfect" for those people. Such people may drop film entirely. An expensive hobby (fad) really doesn't draw more people in by becoming more expensive. Kodak may ultimately see a drop in sales of film by doing this.

British-owned Kodak Alaris was bought out last summer by very smart and aggressive American investors in Los Angeles near Hollywood. I'm sure they're monitoring sales and will adjust marketing accordingly. I think Eastman Kodak's improvement to manufacturing completed in November might have something to do with Alaris's new owners. Let's hope both companies are working together to improve deliveries of existing emulsions and might be thinking of adding new emulsions to their inventory.

 

[Don_ih]

I think that all amounts to wishful thinking, Alan. But time will tell.

 

[Lachlan Young]

What if they have to drop Portra 800 because too many people are using 500T? I can't imagine there's huge market for it.

It's more that there's demand for an 800D ECN-2 stock within the film/ TV/ streaming industry. It might come as a shock to some, but Portra 800 sells well.

 

[brbo]

It's more that there's demand for an 800D ECN-2 stock within the film/ TV/ streaming industry.

There was a rumour about new Kodak cine emulsion a while back. It's hard to imagine it would be anything other than ISO 400-800 daylight balanced. Sadly, nothing past a couple of music "videos" has been shared with the wider audience, but there are people claiming they are still getting this new film from Kodak for testing purposes.

 

[Agulliver]

I doubt that sales of Portra 800 would be affected by 500T being available for still photography because the two are have very different colour palettes.

I totally understand KA protecting it's market within the law, and while this recent development probably is connected with the new owners it's not necessarily wrong, at least legally speaking. It just seems a bit of overkill if the cine derived stocks sell vastly less than the Kodak films designed for still photography. Though I suppose it is conceivable that KA are more worried about slower daylight cine-derived stocks undercutting Gold and Ultramax.

 

[pentaxuser]

Stop trying to cut corners and buy Eastman Kodak photo film distributed by Alaris. Alaris has a legal right to protect their market. If you don't like how they run their business, buy another brand.

I wasn't trying to stop anything, Alan. Currently I don't buy either film or any colour film. I was merely suggesting what Wolfram's argument led me to think about what degree of harm comes to KA or its new buyers if respooling were to continue. Based on Wolfram's posts it just seemed to me that KA or its new owners had exploited its monopolistic with little or no benefit to itself and some others at least seem to be saying similar things

The jury based on Photrio would seem to be very much still out as to whether respooling is adversely affecting trad non cine still film sales

It's not Hadleyville, Tex Ritter is not singing and High Noon is not approaching so ít's not a fight between us. We may have different viewpoints of course but that should not stop an interesting discussion between any of us on Photrio, should it?

pentaxuser

 

[koraks]

The jury based on Photrio would seem to be very much still out as to whether respooling is adversely affecting trad non cine still film sales

I bet the jury within EK is still out on this one, too. Channel and portfolio conflicts like these are inherently (difficult) to disentangle, and decision-making relies more on argumentation/reasoning than on hard figures. Nobody has a crystal ball that actually works!

 

[Sanug]

Maybe Ektachrome is a bigger issue for KA than the ECN2 films. Respooled E100D is available at half the price of E100. And they want to keep their monopole on slide film since Fujichrome has become nearly unavailable.

Another issue may be respooled Double-X which competes with Tri-X.

I don't believe it's all about ECN2 and remjet.