Rolleiflex Hy6...One of the last medium format cameras in production

Pieter12 · Jul 15, 2023

buildbot said:
Interesting!
Maybe someone should tell them ... hmm

I mean, is it a tough market though? They operate at such a high price new they are nearing in Phase One territory. Phase has apparently have already sold at least one of their new XC cameras, at 62K USD. I feel like at that price level, you are going for a few cameras a year to people with $$$$, aka people who don't have to work at all for a living, ever. Or maybe really well heeled wedding photographers. But can you imagine being a wedding photographer and needing what, 3+ Hy6 Bodies to cover having 2 at any time in the shop for half the year?

The thing is, people do like using them, so support is critical. Nobody wants a 10-11K paperweight! Phase One support has been nothing but incredibly awesome every time I work with them. DW Photo has been okay up to this point, before this disaster. I wonder if Rolf had some kind of negative life event that is spilling over or something, the responses seem so out of kilter.

Actually, I have made Duncan Meeder of Lisse aware of the lack of response I was getting from Braunschweig. He said he was planning a visit at that time (maybe 6 months or more ago). But I have also heard from someone who did not like Duncan's business practices either, selling a lot of NOS as new. Please do not take this as gospel truth, it is just what I have learned through correspondance and conversations with individuals who have an interest in DW Photo. I have also been told of health problems with the principals or their families, taking time away from the business. Which is understandable but can really slow things down with such a small enterprise.

But beyond the issues of trying to run a business with a probable lack of cash flow and a dearth of qualified technicians and suppliers, the market is just not really there. Despite buildbot's assumption that MF digital cameras are purchased by folks with lots of money to burn, most of the market consists of professionals and fine art photographers. Phase One, Hasselblad and Fuji really have a lock on that market, not to mention technical cameras like Alpa and Cambo. Rollei/DW really can't have much success with an expensive, low-production camera with questionable support and no dealers to speak of.

And finally, when my Hy6 and Rollei gear is all working as intended, it is fabulous. Beyond the fact that I have a lot invested in the system, the lenses, handling and results can be nothing short of spectacular. Although I have to admit for digital color work, I use a Leica S 006 with what are most probably the finest lenses I know.

JPD · Jul 16, 2023

So DW Photo laughs at this thread. Maybe they think the users of their products are suckers, or they scoff at customers who have problems with the products. Either way, it's a company I'm going to stay away from.

buildbot · Jul 16, 2023

Pieter12 said:
I have made Duncan Meeder of Lisse aware of the lack of response I was getting from Braunschweig.

I may need to try that too. Though honestly, not sure I trust the factory to actually give me my hy6 back if I sent it to them again…

JPD said:
So DW Photo laughs at this thread. Maybe they think the users of their products are suckers, or they scoff at customers who have problems with the products. Either way, it's a company I'm going to stay away from.

I wish I had, I was nervous about it back in 2021, but the lure of the 6x6 autofocus camera was too strong. It was a gift to myself after a long year during the pandemic, and I enjoyed it immensely.

One of my favorite photos was taken on a cross country trip when I brought the hy6 with me, and is hanging over my bed to this day.

I bought ten rolls of fresh film in preparation to use this camera!

I have heard nothing back from them still after my last email, and nothing from key camera or Paepke Fototechnik yet.

Pieter12 · Jul 16, 2023

buildbot said:
I may need to try that too. Though honestly, not sure I trust the factory to actually give me my hy6 back if I sent it to them again…

I wish I had, I was nervous about it back in 2021, but the lure of the 6x6 autofocus camera was too strong. It was a gift to myself after a long year during the pandemic, and I enjoyed it immensely.

One of my favorite photos was taken on a cross country trip when I brought the hy6 with me, and is hanging over my bed to this day.

I bought ten rolls of fresh film in preparation to use this camera!

I have heard nothing back from them still after my last email, and nothing from key camera or Paepke Fototechnik yet.

You might try calling Dave at Key Camera. He's closed on Sunday and Wednesday. ‭(303) 772-7690

buildbot · Jul 16, 2023

Pieter12 said:
You might try calling Dave at Key Camera. He's closed on Sunday and Wednesday. ‭(303) 772-7690

Will definitely give that a try tomorrow :smile:

buildbot · Jul 17, 2023

Paepke Fototechnik said they simply send the Hy6s to DW, so that is not an option. Eric also offered to send it to them, but noted they probably know the serial number, with the ridiculous implication (not on Eric's part, I want to note!) that they will now probably refuse to service it.

Will call Key camera soon and see, otherwise an insurance claim might be my last resort. I can fantasize they'll go after DW for fraud, but I know this is indeed, a fantasy.

Kodachromeguy · Jul 17, 2023

buildbot said:
otherwise an insurance claim might be my last resort.

What kind of insurance do you have? The insurance policies for personal possessions that I have seen cover loss, theft, or damage. Do they apply to defective products?

Sirius Glass · Jul 17, 2023

Kodachromeguy said:
What kind of insurance do you have? The insurance policies for personal possessions that I have seen cover loss, theft, or damage. Do they apply to defective products?

That would depend on the type of insurance and the country, but probably not. @MattKing can expand on that.

buildbot · Jul 17, 2023

Kodachromeguy said:
What kind of insurance do you have? The insurance policies for personal possessions that I have seen cover loss, theft, or damage. Do they apply to defective products?

It's through Full Frame insurance, they have a fairly comprehensive policy. I'll send them the email chain where Rolf says he tested it twice, before and after fixing some cosmetic issues. So I suppose if Rolf is telling the truth, and not actually committing literal fraud, then it was damaged when it was shipped back to me. I don't have much hope for that method to be honest, it is a last resort. Well, before selling the broken body to someone here as parts/repair

MattKing · Jul 17, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
That would depend on the type of insurance and the country, but probably not. @MattKing can expand on that.

Best to have an insurance broker expand on that. - not me

buildbot · Jul 17, 2023

MattKing said:
Best to have an insurance broker expand on that. - not me

Sirius Glass said:
That would depend on the type of insurance and the country, but probably not. @MattKing can expand on that.

Worst they can say is no!

Pieter12 · Jul 17, 2023

Maybe one of those lemon law lawyers could give it a try.

buildbot · Jul 17, 2023

Pieter12 said:
Maybe one of those lemon law lawyers could give it a try.

Isn’t that just for cars? Plus the whole international aspect …

Pieter12 · Jul 17, 2023

buildbot said:
Isn’t that just for cars? Plus the whole international aspect …

Yeah, it's for cars. But lawyers have been known to take on all kinds of cases. But I doubt those guys have much experience in international law. Maybe it depends on where the camera was purchased.

buildbot · Jul 18, 2023

Pieter12 said:
Yeah, it's for cars. But lawyers have been known to take on all kinds of cases. But I doubt those guys have much experience in international law. Maybe it depends on where the camera was purchased.

Purchased in the USA

Good news! Dave at Key Camera will take a look at it, though if it needs parts, then probably nothing can be done. It sounded like the factory literally does not have any spares really anymore.

I wonder if given the right to repair legislation, if schematics and designs for the parts could be obtained. It’s sad these cameras will slowly die off, given that the factory is inept.

Pieter12 · Jul 18, 2023

buildbot said:
Purchased in the USA

Good news! Dave at Key Camera will take a look at it, though if it needs parts, then probably nothing can be done. It sounded like the factory literally does not have any spares really anymore.

I wonder if given the right to repair legislation, if schematics and designs for the parts could be obtained. It’s sad these cameras will slowly die off, given that the factory is inept.

Dave has told me several times the factory won't share any repair manuals or schematics with him. I believe that Eric at Rolleiflex USA lent him a Hy6 to take apart and learn from a while ago.

buildbot · Jul 18, 2023

Pieter12 said:
Dave has told me several times the factory won't share any repair manuals or schematics with him. I believe that Eric at Rolleiflex USA lent him a Hy6 to take apart and learn from a while ago.

I wonder if any European or German laws can help there, isn’t the right to repair somewhat of a thing? I have no idea if it even includes cameras.

It’s so annoying that this camera may become e-waste because the current owners of the IP are …. difficult. The PCB does not seem that complex, all things considered. These days, you can order a 12 layer board fully assembled for not much money. 4 layer is literally 2$ an inch for a set of 5 boards, assembly another 10$. Clearly DW does not want to work on these anymore, or sell any either considering the reaction to this thread, why not let others do it!

Anaxagore · Jul 19, 2023

When DW does not answer, it seems to be worth it to ask Mr. Paepke to give DW a call... The main problem at DW at the moment seems to be the lack of inventory parts. It looks like they are ordering parts from China, that never come. I could believer that during peak Covid time, but now it feels like a cash issue.
What annoyed me with DW is that I have been wanting to purchase a new 6060 magazine; they told me they did not have the parts yet, so I asked them to give me a shout when they did. A few months later, I see some new magazines popping up on online shops (Eric's among others, who may have been on the wait list longer than I was) and when I asked them again at that time, they were still out of parts. As if they had received parts for a handful of magazines but not more, all already gone.
They seem reluctant to give one an estimate / quote (min-max) for repairs. They receive the items to be repaired, then some time later send the bill.
I almost have the impression (just that, an impression, probably not reality) that they all have a second job (or retirement for the more senior ones) that takes most of their time and come to the factory from time to time to work on the repairs and answer some emails - as a way to keep the factory open with very low business volume.
I have a Hy6 body with them for side panel change, an 80/2 and an AFD 150 that need to be fixed (80/2 for an optical problem, AFD for AF problem), all sent at the end of April. I knock on wood that they will come back soon...

MattKing · Jul 19, 2023

Anaxagore said:
I almost have the impression (just that, an impression, probably not reality) that they all have a second job (or retirement for the more senior ones) that takes most of their time and come to the factory from time to time to work on the repairs and answer some emails - as a way to keep the factory open with very low business volume.

My sense from the posts I've seen here is that they are a very, very small operation. No separate management structure, and limited capacity to take on anything more than a small amount of day to day business. My earlier comments about their limited resources and whether they or their lender(s) control things reflect that impression.

Arthurwg · Jul 19, 2023

Pieter12 said:
Yeah, it's for cars. But lawyers have been known to take on all kinds of cases. But I doubt those guys have much experience in international law. Maybe it depends on where the camera was purchased.

In the UK, I believe, you can claim that virtually anything is "unfit for purpose."

Pieter12 · Jul 19, 2023

MattKing said:
My sense from the posts I've seen here is that they are a very, very small operation. No separate management structure, and limited capacity to take on anything more than a small amount of day to day business. My earlier comments about their limited resources and whether they or their lender(s) control things reflect that impression.

Yeah, it seems like a very minimal operation, and in Germany they tend to be quite liberal with time off and vacations. As far as their investors or lenders controlling anything, I mentioned Duncan from Leica Store Lisse who has stated that they owe him a considerable (maybe at least for him) amount and he doesn't seem to be able to get much more information or have extra influence from what I can tell. He has a lot of prototype and one-of-a-kind Rollei equipment listed in his store, he might have gotten that as collateral.

MattKing · Jul 19, 2023

Duncan sounds more like a creditor than a lender!

Pieter12 · Jul 19, 2023

MattKing said:
Duncan sounds more like a creditor than a lender!

Aren't they the same in most instances?

Sirius Glass · Jul 19, 2023

MattKing said:
My sense from the posts I've seen here is that they are a very, very small operation. No separate management structure, and limited capacity to take on anything more than a small amount of day to day business. My earlier comments about their limited resources and whether they or their lender(s) control things reflect that impression.

A terrible demise for a useful product idea. Talk about circling the drain. So sad.

buildbot · Jul 19, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
A terrible demise for a useful product idea. Talk about circling the drain. So sad.

100% . Unless they find someone other than Rolf to repair and deal with customers, stay away. The company is effectively dead.

Anaxagore said:
When DW does not answer, it seems to be worth it to ask Mr. Paepke to give DW a call... The main problem at DW at the moment seems to be the lack of inventory parts. It looks like they are ordering parts from China, that never come. I could believer that during peak Covid time, but now it feels like a cash issue.
What annoyed me with DW is that I have been wanting to purchase a new 6060 magazine; they told me they did not have the parts yet, so I asked them to give me a shout when they did. A few months later, I see some new magazines popping up on online shops (Eric's among others, who may have been on the wait list longer than I was) and when I asked them again at that time, they were still out of parts. As if they had received parts for a handful of magazines but not more, all already gone.
They seem reluctant to give one an estimate / quote (min-max) for repairs. They receive the items to be repaired, then some time later send the bill.
I almost have the impression (just that, an impression, probably not reality) that they all have a second job (or retirement for the more senior ones) that takes most of their time and come to the factory from time to time to work on the repairs and answer some emails - as a way to keep the factory open with very low business volume.
I have a Hy6 body with them for side panel change, an 80/2 and an AFD 150 that need to be fixed (80/2 for an optical problem, AFD for AF problem), all sent at the end of April. I knock on wood that they will come back soon...

It sounds somewhat like my serial is now tainted, and even if I had Mr., Paepke handle things it might not go well, plus, I really don't want to ship things to Germany again.

I may sell this entire system, including the 6060 back I have, if you are interested still...

I would not bet that they service those soon, my Hy6 was with them from March until July. Maybe you'll have more luck than I did though.

Rolleiflex Hy6...One of the last medium format cameras in production

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Rolleiflex Hy6...One of the last medium format cameras in production

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