Sally Mann Photographs Removed from Texas Museum Exhibition after Outcry

[Inomoxo]

Sally Mann is no stranger to this type of critique. In her book Hold Still (2015 Little, Brown and Company) she describes the response to photos made from her second ever roll of film as a high school student in 1969. “I shot only 24 images, eight were of my friend Kit lying alone in the grove, my attempt to imitate one of my favorite images, [Child in Forest, 1952] by Wynn Bullock in The Family of Man.” Her photography teacher initially assessed her work in writing as “appealing from an artistic point of view” but later turned her in for using “inappropriate subject matter.” Mann considered the work to be "a sweet meditation on figure” which were “unambiguously nonsexual.”

 

[MattKing]

I can't help but Point out, that one of the "funny" things about Quebec is that the CIVIL law, (not criminal Law) is based on the Napoleon's Droit Civil, while civil law in the other provinces, the Teritories, and the USA is all descended from British Common Law civil law. (the version from 1776 in the US and the Version from 1967 in Canada, (except Quebec) Much of the CIVIL law in Europe is also based on Napoleanic Law.
one of my professors proably OVER simplified by Saying what is not in the DROIT CIVIL is forbidden, while under common law the Legislation and court Cases define what is forbidden.

which of course brings up the point that it is the courts that eventually interpret statue law, and may of the books Layers use, have more space taken with Footnotes than with the Text from the legislature. That is why Non-lawyers like Myself have to be self censoring when trying to explain some of these concepts. Here in Ontario giving what appers to be legal advice can get one in trouble from the Law Society of Upper Canada. their are several laws in Canada that are still on the books, but which the courts have said can't be enforced.

A few comments, from a retired former lawyer - not a Quebec one though.
Our version of the common law came to us in 1867, not the 1967 - likely a typo - referred to above.
The civil law in Louisiana is also based on the Napoleonic code.
Both non-lawyers, and retired lawyers like me are supposed to make clear that we aren't licensed practicing lawyers and are not permitted to hold ourselves out as such.
And both non-lawyers and retired lawyers like me are not permitted to charge money for our legal advice.
But as long as you don't hold yourself out as a licensed practicing lawyer, and aren't charging for your advice, you can share all the legal advice and opinions you wish.
There are loads of knowledgeable academics and others out there who can provide valuable insights on these issues. They just can't call themselves licensed practicing lawyers, or in the case of people in Quebec, licensed and practicing notaries or avocates.
As a retired lawyer, it is prudent for me to stress that I no longer am a licensed practitioner. Otherwise some might be confused or even misled by my prior professional standing.
In modern times, lawyers must first attain a mostly academic law degree before proceeding further. Subjects like how legal systems compare and contrast are included in that course work.
The practical vocationally oriented stuff mostly comes after the academic degree. And the majority of people with a law degree don't ever practice law or don't practice law for very long. Instead, they apply their knowledge and training to related fields.
In my case, while I did a small amount of court work throughout my nearly quarter century of practice, like most lawyers I mostly dealt with matters that don't involve court appearances, or that involve infrequent court appearances.

 

[retina_restoration]

Sally Mann is no stranger to this type of critique. In her book Hold Still (2015 Little, Brown and Company) she describes the response to photos made from her second ever roll of film as a high school student in 1969. “I shot only 24 images, eight were of my friend Kit lying alone in the grove, my attempt to imitate one of my favorite images, [Child in Forest, 1952] by Wynn Bullock in The Family of Man.” Her photography teacher initially assessed her work in writing as “appealing from an artistic point of view” but later turned her in for using “inappropriate subject matter.” Mann considered the work to be "a sweet meditation on figure” which were “unambiguously nonsexual.”

In this era, I bet Wynn bullock wouldn't get away with photographing his daughter (Barbara) as he did in "Child in Forest". Sad, that.

 

[Don_ih]

also involved having to remove everything that followed it, because it was directly or indirectly a response to the comment the author deleted

I didn't say anything in those deleted comments I hadn't said pretty much at the start of this thread.

Sally Mann is no stranger to this type of critique. In her book Hold Still (2015 Little, Brown and Company) she describes the response to photos made from her second ever roll of film as a high school student in 1969. “I shot only 24 images, eight were of my friend Kit lying alone in the grove, my attempt to imitate one of my favorite images, [Child in Forest, 1952] by Wynn Bullock in The Family of Man.” Her photography teacher initially assessed her work in writing as “appealing from an artistic point of view” but later turned her in for using “inappropriate subject matter.” Mann considered the work to be "a sweet meditation on figure” which were “unambiguously nonsexual.”

Maybe a high school teacher couldn't blankly accept a nude photo of a high school student without mentioning it to the principal of the school, unambiguously non-sexual study of figure or not. It's rather frowned upon when high school teachers study the nude figure of high school students, whatever motivation.

 

[Agulliver]

Nudity isn't lewd. And behavior can be lewd without involving nudity.
Even in Texas.

This 100%.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Here's an article from a criminal attorney discussing this case in particular and what defines child pornography. I haven't had a chance to fully read it, but it looks very interesting. It seems to clarify the issue in depth.

Child Pornography in Texas: The Line Between Art & Illegality

Do nude images of children constitute child pornography in Texas? The line between art and criminality aren't always clear.

versustexas.com

 

[BrianShaw]

The only new information is the advertisement for their firm. It’s all been discussed. Perhaps it’s time to move on…

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

The only new information is the advertisement for their firm. It’s all been discussed. Perhaps it’s time to move on…

Now it is up to the DA to decide what to do.

 

[MattKing]

Now it is up to the DA to decide what to do.

And what is truly scary, what the ancient artefact called a "grand jury" decides after that.

 

[BrianShaw]

… and it’s a good thing that her tree photos weren’t included, the trees with erect penises. Imagine the DA and Grand Jury trying to evaluate them against the penal code!

 

[GregY]

… and it’s a good thing that her tree photos weren’t included, the trees with erect penises. Imagine the DA and Grand Jury trying to evaluate them against the penal code!

 

[BrianShaw]

Nice picture, but not the tree photos I was referring to.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I didn't say anything in those deleted comments I hadn't said pretty much at the start of this thread.



Maybe a high school teacher couldn't blankly accept a nude photo of a high school student without mentioning it to the principal of the school, unambiguously non-sexual study of figure or not. It's rather frowned upon when high school teachers study the nude figure of high school students, whatever motivation.

In California teachers and principals are mandated reporters and as such must report all incidents regardless of personal opinions.

 

[GregY]

Nice picture, but not the tree photos I was referring to.

From the series..... why not post the photo you're referring to Brian?

 

[BrianShaw]

From the series..... why not post the photo you're referring to Brian?

i would, but they potentially meet the criteria provided by Alan for erotic pornography. I shall not be a supplier.

 

[Don_ih]

Aren't they little photos in the text of Immediate Family?

 

[BrianShaw]

Aren't they little photos in the text of Immediate Family?

Don, you are one of the few in this thread who seems to have both a logical and profound opinion, and a complete understanding of the subject matter.

 

[GregY]

i would, but they potentially meet the criteria provided by Alan for erotic pornography. I shall not be a supplier.

So if I understand correctly, now both an individual in NJ and one in La-la-land are setting the standards for what images can be posted on an international photo forum?
There are lots of Sally Mann images on google.....not yet subject to censorship.......

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

i would, but they potentially meet the criteria provided by Alan for erotic pornography. I shall not be a supplier.

I've seen Mann's photos. I wouldn't say they're pornographic but some are a bit spicy.

 

[MattKing]

In this era, I bet Wynn bullock wouldn't get away with photographing his daughter (Barbara) as he did in "Child in Forest". Sad, that.

In the versions I have seen, it isn't completely clear that Barbara in "Child in Forest" is nude.
That state of (un)dress may have been confirmed by Wynn Bullock, but the presentations I have seen on the internet don't.
I find it ironic that this subject on Photrio coincides with the discussion about David Lynch's passing.
Both Mann's work and Lynch's work spend a lot of time inhabiting that which tends to disquiet.
All with artistic representation of "actors" playing "make believe" - none with representation of what happens to be actual reality. In other words, neither spend time as documentarians or photo-journalists.
IMHO, if either Mann or Lynch have their work taken down from public view, the world is a poorer place.

 

[Don_ih]

I find it ironic that this subject on Photrio coincides with the discussion about David Lynch's passing.

I find that about as coincidental as rain falling in Brazil and a mouse walking across a floor in Manitoba. And slightly less ironic.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

In the versions I have seen, it isn't completely clear that Barbara in "Child in Forest" is nude.
That state of (un)dress may have been confirmed by Wynn Bullock, but the presentations I have seen on the internet don't.
I find it ironic that this subject on Photrio coincides with the discussion about David Lynch's passing.
Both Mann's work and Lynch's work spend a lot of time inhabiting that which tends to disquiet.
All with artistic representation of "actors" playing "make believe" - none with representation of what happens to be actual reality. In other words, neither spend time as documentarians or photo-journalists.
IMHO, if either Mann or Lynch have their work taken down from public view, the world is a poorer place.

Later in life, the girl in the Child in Forest wrote that she was told to take her clothes off by her father and later had mixed feelings about the whole results that affected her life. Both her mother and father were involved in setting up the photograph. I think the parents would be prosecuted under today's laws.

Wynn Bullock Photography - Child in Forest, 1951

Dedicated to the life and work of Wynn Bullock, one of the 20th century's great American photographers.

wynnbullockphotography.com

 

[MattKing]

I find that about as coincidental as rain falling in Brazil and a mouse walking across a floor in Manitoba. And slightly less ironic.

As usual, Don and I are not ad item on some things.
The irony - in my mind - is that few see the connections between the effects that their respective work have on us.

 

[GregY]

In the versions I have seen, it isn't completely clear that Barbara in "Child in Forest" is nude.
That state of (un)dress may have been confirmed by Wynn Bullock, but the presentations I have seen on the internet don't.
I find it ironic that this subject on Photrio coincides with the discussion about David Lynch's passing.
Both Mann's work and Lynch's work spend a lot of time inhabiting that which tends to disquiet.
All with artistic representation of "actors" playing "make believe" - none with representation of what happens to be actual reality. In other words, neither spend time as documentarians or photo-journalists.
IMHO, if either Mann or Lynch have their work taken down from public view, the world is a poorer place.

Indeed!

 

[MattKing]

Later in life, the girl in the Child in Forest wrote that she was told to take her clothes off by her father and later had mixed feelings about the whole results that affected her life. Both her mother and father were involved in setting up the photograph. I think the parents would be prosecuted under today's laws.

Wynn Bullock Photography - Child in Forest, 1951

Dedicated to the life and work of Wynn Bullock, one of the 20th century's great American photographers.

wynnbullockphotography.com

Read the whole essay.
Not just the short part about short term discomfort.