Sensitometry and results from an artificial light source

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Bill Burk

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You would accumulate the curve “families” for each film / developer combination.

If you’re only offering HC-110 dilution B at 20-degrees C then your work is simpler.

But you might venture into alternative developers like Pyro (because it’s superior), Barry Thornton Two Bath (for long subject luminance range), Dektol cold with anti-fog (for found ancient film), Rodinol stand (for sharpness), etc.

People do each of these for their own reasons, and it’s not unreasonable to provide if you do custom developing.

Upswept curves with a kink? I don’t know the value because someone would need to understand how to place a significant tone on the part of the curve that’s advantageous for the part of the subject. (For example placing a person’s face on the steepest part of the sweep gives greater detail there. But you would have to see the curve beforehand and aim the exposure to fall there. That’s something a scientist could do but a creative might not be up for).

But process control. You need that.
 

Ron789

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You may want to take a look at this website: https://fotoimport.no/fktmax (partly with English explanations, rest self-explanatory)
These guys tested many films with many developers and documented the results in densitometric graphs and side-by-side image comparisons. Must have been a huge effort so I prefer looking at this website rather than re-doing such research myself.
 

Bill Burk

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Fotoimport did a very good job.

That’s the kind of data that “informs the craft”.

Granted I have experience, but it’s not hard to explain. It’s also not hard to do.

A lab should do this for the film they accept for processing. A curve family test using a sensitometer is simple enough to do in five test strips, while the same using Zone System technique takes fifty.
 

Bill Burk

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You get the point, I hope, that the possibilities are infinite, but the utility of offering them isn't.

I get that the combinations are infinite so there’s no reason to do all the combinations.

Just perform tests for quality control and if they happen to be interesting, you can share them.
 

Romanko

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Fotoimport did a very good job.

That’s the kind of data that “informs the craft”.
You may want to take a look at this website: https://fotoimport.no/fktmax (partly with English explanations, rest self-explanatory)

If the OP's goal is to repeat and extend Fotoimport's results this would be a great contribution. The effort is indeed huge and the costs involved are substantial but if you are already running a commercial film lab you might find a way to integrate the experiments in your everyday work.

There is still an open question of repeatability, process control and tolerances. Does anyone have any data on these?
 
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reneboehmer

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My goal is to develop negatives good for printing with a diffuse enlarger. We will eventually also offer hand printing, therefore it makes sense to develop for a normal diffuse setup.

The goal of this isn't really to offer everything possible. As nice as pyro based developers or two baths are, it's not really viable to use in a commercial setting. I just want to show all clients what they are getting with our standard process. A simple curve family, without flare. And also an SBR (Or Zones) to film speed curve for more experienced clients who own and know how to handle a meter.
This is surely better than what most other labs offer, when it comes to B&W developing. Most put the film in machines and develop with rapid, high temp. B&W developer. Not my cup of tea, to be honest. I want to be confident to drop my own film off at my lab.

Fotoimport seems like a nice project and is similar to my idea.

These are the curves I have in my head. Simple and informative.


sbr.JPG







.
btzs.JPG
 

Bill Burk

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That’s exactly what five tests with a sensitometer can give you.
 

BCM

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After teaching hundreds of people how to use the BTZS system over the years, I'll offer up the advice that I give on testing. Film speed is but one step in the process. The development, your shutter, temperature drift, developer exhaustion, etc all contribute to the overall process. Getting too crazy about spectral response of film to different light sources and how that affects CI or film speed in general will make you nuts. You can't control everything but you pay close attention to consistency in your processes. We've all had negatives that were incorrectly exposed or developed far beyond the tiny factors discussed here and produced fine quality prints. Control what you can to a reasonable degree and enjoy yourself. Take this from someone with 3 sensitometers, 3 densitometers, 10 step tablets and a need to self-mix all chemistry using distilled water. Some of my best work was visually perfect and off in both exposure or development.
 

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We will eventually also offer hand printing, therefore it makes sense to develop for a normal diffuse setup.

Hand printing for aesthetic purposes (as opposed to technical purposes) in practice isn't just about getting the SBR to fit in the desired density range on the negative. In fact, many fine art/pro printers don't bother with any of the sensitometry and 'simply' print what their clients give them, in collaboration with the client and in accordance with their vision. This has a heck of a lot more to do with understanding the needs and vision of the people you work with than with plotting charts.

This is not to discourage you from the interesting sensitometer project, but to hopefully make you aware of the realities of doing commercial fine art printing, with fine art production being the only viable rationale for offering a darkroom printing service to begin with, in 2025.
 
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reneboehmer

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Hand printing for aesthetic purposes (as opposed to technical purposes) in practice isn't just about getting the SBR to fit in the desired density range on the negative. In fact, many fine art/pro printers don't bother with any of the sensitometry and 'simply' print what their clients give them, in collaboration with the client and in accordance with their vision. This has a heck of a lot more to do with understanding the needs and vision of the people you work with than with plotting charts.

This is not to discourage you from the interesting sensitometer project, but to hopefully make you aware of the realities of doing commercial fine art printing, with fine art production being the only viable rationale for offering a darkroom printing service to begin with, in 2025.
Dear Koraks I come from an art background originally and have worked with master printers myself. I am more than aware of this fact. It is, obviously, in the end only about creating a print for the human who looks at it rather than a reflection measurement. But in my experience it is handy to have a proper negative to work from. :smile:
My friend Robin, a printer in the UK, never uses any technical tests at all. He looks at the baseboard of his enlarger, judges the negative, dials in the contrast and obtains almost perfect prints straight away. Prints that make you go "wow". The man has no densitometer, no sensitometer, no test charts and still works for Ernst Haas estate, the Beatles, and the London portrait gallery.
But I like to work with both sides of the spectrum. Have a good negative, if you can, it makes it easier to succeed in a fine print.
 
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reneboehmer

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After teaching hundreds of people how to use the BTZS system over the years, I'll offer up the advice that I give on testing. Film speed is but one step in the process. The development, your shutter, temperature drift, developer exhaustion, etc all contribute to the overall process. Getting too crazy about spectral response of film to different light sources and how that affects CI or film speed in general will make you nuts. You can't control everything but you pay close attention to consistency in your processes. We've all had negatives that were incorrectly exposed or developed far beyond the tiny factors discussed here and produced fine quality prints. Control what you can to a reasonable degree and enjoy yourself. Take this from someone with 3 sensitometers, 3 densitometers, 10 step tablets and a need to self-mix all chemistry using distilled water. Some of my best work was visually perfect and off in both exposure or development.

Dear BCM,
I appreciate this. I agree fully with you, I just like to get caught up in the details, lying in bed at night thinking about what could influence what :D. We have a 7 filter reverse osmosis system in our Lab and create the chemicals from scratch (or use one-shot). We have air-conditioning and follow the exact same processes. Not only that, but we have machines who rotate the drums for us.

Well it's not about controlling everything perfectly, it's about, and I have mentioned this before, a work ethic. Working in a standardized, precise manner influences every lab employees view of the work place, makes them go: This is the real deal. Making them more engaged, happier and more thoughtful.
This is my view, at least.

Also, clients who are more precise and deeper into the matter can drop off their film without having to worry, it will be properly developed. More properly than in most other labs, this is. I have visited many labs in the last couple of years and have talked to many lab techs. The B&W processes are all over the place. I would not drop off an important roll of B&W film at any lab atm.
 
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Dear BCM,
I appreciate this. I agree fully with you, I just like to get caught up in the details, lying in bed at night thinking about what could influence what :D. We have a 7 filter reverse osmosis system in our Lab and create the chemicals from scratch (or use one-shot). We have air-conditioning and follow the exact same processes. Not only that, but we have machines who rotate the drums for us.

Well it's not about controlling everything perfectly, it's about, and I have mentioned this before, a work ethic. Working in a standardized, precise manner influences every lab employees view of the work place, makes them go: This is the real deal. Making them more engaged, happier and more thoughtful.
This is my view, at least.

Also, clients who are more precise and deeper into the matter can drop off their film without having to worry, it will be properly developed. More properly than in most other labs, this is. I have visited many labs in the last couple of years and have talked to many lab techs. The B&W processes are all over the place. I would not drop off an important roll of B&W film at any lab atm.

I agree. The best method is to use both a technical and artistic approach. They complement each other. Utilizing sensitometry helps to control the variables and allows all the film types to be developed to the same point which is good for a lab. It can also be a good PR device, depending on the target customers. There can also be unintended blow back. Good topics for a new thread. I used sensitometry at the labs I worked at in Los Angeles using a calibrated EG&G Mark VI sensitometer. I also wrote my own plotting programs because I didn't like anything out there (not that I'm any good at programming). Davis' is a good commercial app but it incorporates the BTZS concepts without an option to shut them off and many of the calculations are mathematical tricks to produce the approximate results. This includes the flare and Delta-X calculations. It works fine for most people, I needed something different. Just be aware. There's a big difference between obtaining a curve and properly interpreting it (also a good topic for a new thread).

A lab in New York wrote a handbook about their processing. It was a good PR move, but the actual information was crap. The infoimport site is better but the curve information is mostly for show. They are basically just showing a single curve that isn't developed to the same point as the other tests and they use Zone System parameters to evaluate it. It basically looks impressive to the average customer, but it is practically useless in the information it conveys or what it tells you about their processing.

And even if the data is properly evaluated, application is never as straight forward as one would assume. From The Theory of the Photographic Process 3rd Edition, p 489. "Several thousand prints were involved. According to the findings, a strong correlation exists between the density range of the negative and the log exposure range of the optimum paper only if the variations in the density range are due to differences in development, level of camera exposure, or type of film. When the negative density range varies because of differences in the luminance scales of the scenes, the correlation is weak." And this from Jones, L.A., and Nelson, C.N., Control of Photographic Printing: Improvement in Terminology and Further Analysis of Results, Journal of the Optical Society of America, V. 38, No. 11, 1948. “Because of the influence of the brightness distribution and subject matter in the scenes photographed, an accurate prediction cannot always be made of the exposure scale (LER) of the paper which will give a first-choice print from a negative of known density scale (DR)… But what other course is there to follow? Either we must make the best of a somewhat imperfect relationship or face the prospect of having no criterion whatever for choosing the paper contrast grade.”
 
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I agree. A technical approach does not negate the need for artistic interpretation. It's about blending the two. Utilizing sensitometry helps to control the variables and allows different film types to be developed to the same point which is good for a lab. It can also be a good PR device, depending on the target customers. There can also be unintended blow back. Good topics for a new thread. I used sensitometry at the labs I worked at in Los Angeles using a calibrated EG&G Mark VI sensitometer. I also wrote my own plotting programs because I didn't like anything out there (not that I'm any good at programming). Davis' is not bad but it incorporates the BTZS concepts too much into the program without being able to turn them off, and many of the calculations are mathematical tricks to produce approximate results. This includes the flare and Delta-X calculations, and it only does relative speeds. Just be aware. There's a big difference between obtaining a curve and properly interpreting it (also a good topic for a new thread).

A lab in New York wrote a handbook about their processing. It was a good PR move, but the actual information it contained was crap. The infoimport site is better but the curve information is more for show in my opinion. They are basically just showing a single curve that isn't developed to the same point as the other tests and they use Zone System parameters to evaluate it. It basically looks impressive to the average customer, but it is practically useless in the information it conveys or what it tells you about their processing. If it is what they consider normal for each of their films, then it shows they aren't developing their films to the same point.

And even if the data is properly evaluated, application is never as straight forward as one would assume. From The Theory of the Photographic Process 3rd Edition, p 489. "Several thousand prints were involved. According to the findings, a strong correlation exists between the density range of the negative and the log exposure range of the optimum paper only if the variations in the density range are due to differences in development, level of camera exposure, or type of film. When the negative density range varies because of differences in the luminance scales of the scenes, the correlation is weak." And this from Jones, L.A., and Nelson, C.N., Control of Photographic Printing: Improvement in Terminology and Further Analysis of Results, Journal of the Optical Society of America, V. 38, No. 11, 1948. “Because of the influence of the brightness distribution and subject matter in the scenes photographed, an accurate prediction cannot always be made of the exposure scale (LER) of the paper which will give a first-choice print from a negative of known density scale (DR)… But what other course is there to follow? Either we must make the best of a somewhat imperfect relationship or face the prospect of having no criterion whatever for choosing the paper contrast grade.”
 
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reneboehmer

reneboehmer

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I agree. A technical approach does not negate the need for artistic interpretation. Utilizing sensitometry helps to control the variables and allows all the film types to be developed to the same point which is good for a lab. It can also be a good PR device, depending on the target customers. There can also be unintended blow back. Good topics for a new thread. I used sensitometry at the labs I worked at in Los Angeles using a calibrated EG&G Mark VI sensitometer. I also wrote my own plotting programs because I didn't like anything out there (not that I'm any good at programming). Davis' is not bad but it incorporates the BTZS concepts too much and many of the calculations are mathematical tricks to produce the approximate results. This includes the flare and Delta-X calculations. Just be aware. There's a big difference between obtaining a curve and properly interpreting it (also a good topic for a new thread).

A lab in New York wrote a handbook about their processing. It was a good PR move, but the actual information was crap. The infoimport site is better but the curve information is mostly for show. They are basically just showing a single curve that isn't developed to the same point as the other tests and they use Zone System parameters to evaluate it. It basically looks impressive to the average customer, but it is practically useless in the information it conveys or what it tells you about their processing.

And even if the data is properly evaluated, application is never as straight forward as one would assume. From The Theory of the Photographic Process 3rd Edition, p 489. "Several thousand prints were involved. According to the findings, a strong correlation exists between the density range of the negative and the log exposure range of the optimum paper only if the variations in the density range are due to differences in development, level of camera exposure, or type of film. When the negative density range varies because of differences in the luminance scales of the scenes, the correlation is weak." And this from Jones, L.A., and Nelson, C.N., Control of Photographic Printing: Improvement in Terminology and Further Analysis of Results, Journal of the Optical Society of America, V. 38, No. 11, 1948. “Because of the influence of the brightness distribution and subject matter in the scenes photographed, an accurate prediction cannot always be made of the exposure scale (LER) of the paper which will give a first-choice print from a negative of known density scale (DR)… But what other course is there to follow? Either we must make the best of a somewhat imperfect relationship or face the prospect of having no criterion whatever for choosing the paper contrast grade.”

Dear Stephen,
thanks for your reply. I am not much of a programmer and opted to go with the btzs plotter. Could you elaborate on what you mean by produces approximate results? Do you mean the linearization of the actual measurements to create smooth curves? As far as I am aware, extra calculations, such as flare, are optional. I am a bit fuzzy about the actual difference between relative and absolute testing. Why would this tool not be useful for absolute testing? I can't enter lux seconds as an x-axis? Why would Delta X calculations be approximate in this case?
 
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reneboehmer

reneboehmer

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That's the type of printer I'm most familiar with, yes. Anyway, good luck with your project; I'm looking forward with great interest to what comes of it.
In the end, what counts is taste and skill. No matter the way. I'll update everything as I progress.
 

Bill Burk

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@Stephen Benskin good to hear from you.
@BCM nice to meet you, your experience is welcome here.

Consistency! You can get that by watching the thermometer and clock.

I do my graphs by hand.

Darn, just tossed a projector I was going to use to make a sector wheel sensitometer with.

The electronic flash EG&G is great.
 
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Dear Stephen,
thanks for your reply. I am not much of a programmer and opted to go with the btzs plotter. Could you elaborate on what you mean by produces approximate results? Do you mean the linearization of the actual measurements to create smooth curves? As far as I am aware, extra calculations, such as flare, are optional. I am a bit fuzzy about the actual difference between relative and absolute testing. Why would this tool not be useful for absolute testing? I can't enter lux seconds as an x-axis? Why would Delta X calculations be approximate in this case?

Phil Davis is probably one of the few authors of any general purpose photography book who is generally correct and accurate concerning photographic theory. The reason I don't use the BTZS program isn't because it's not good, but because I have different requirements. It's excellent for the needs of most photographers.

On pages 93-94 of BTZS 3rd edition, Davis explains the theory for the fractional gradient method and his method to approximate it. "Because the fractional gradient method of speed point location is difficult to implement in practice (you can't find the speed point until you know the average gradient, and you can't calculate the average gradient until you've located the speed point), it was important to find some simpler calibration procedure. Finally, researchers concluded that when a realistic safety factor of about 1 stop is included I the fractional gradient measurement procedure and when the film is developed to an average gradient value of about 0.7, the fixed density and fractional gradient methods are in close agreement." I just want to point out that I have a slight problem with that last sentence. While Davis correctly states the average gradient is approximately 0.62 in a following sentence which some what covers the 0.70 value, it's the 1 stop safety factor part that I find questionable. While the fixed density of 0.10 is effectively 1 stop over the fractional gradient point when the film has an average gradient of approximately of 0.62, the one stop difference isn't a safety factor. Calling it a safety factor can be misleading. It is possible this was a simplification on Davis' part to explain the range difference without getting into the weeds. He continues, "The current ANSI and ISO standards approximate this condition by specifyi8ng an exposure range of 1.30 and a density range of 0.80, with the speed point located at the 0.10 over Fb+f level. The average gradient of this standard curve is approximately 0.62."

The first sentence in the next paragraph is an important statement that is rarely found. "It's important to understand that the ISO speed point is only a point of reference from which the official film speed number is calculated." This distinction was clear with the ASA values before the 1960 standard, where there was an ASA Speed and an ASA Film Exposure Index value as indicated in this excerpt from Safety Factors. Notice the difference between the equations for the Exposure Index and American Standard Speed is the constant k (not the same constant as the K factor).

1737912177408.png


And this is from an old Kodak Data book.

1737912971149.png


The difference between the "Kodak Speeds" (ASA Speeds) and EI are approximately 2 stops. The difference between the fractional gradient speed and the fixed density of 0.10 in the ISO standard is approximately 1 stop. That is where the one stop difference between film speeds prior to and after the 1960 standard is from. Not from moving away from the fractional gradient speed, but from a change in the constant for the EI. Both standards use the fractional gradient speed as the foundation.

Continuing with Davis, "Furthermore, it approximates the point of optimum minimum image density for only that one exposure/development condition - that is when the subject range happens to be suitable for development that will produce an average gradient value of 0.62. The ISO speed point location and therefore the official film speed are not necessarily appropriate for use with other subject range of development conditions." The reason for this is the fractional gradient speed point is derived as it's name suggests, from a fraction of the average gradient. As the film gradient changes, so does the fractional gradient speed point. A fix density doesn't not shift in the same way. This is also a distinction left out of most speed discussions.

Further down on page 94. "As mentioned previously, it's quite difficult to locate fractional gradient speed points by using ordinary mechanical drawing techniques, so several methods have been proposed for approximating them." Davis then list a few methods, but interesting enough, not the Delta-X Criterion which is the very method adopted to replace the fractional gradient method. "This reinforces the conclusion we reached earlier: We can relate the density of the speed point - rather than the value of the curve gradient at the speed point - to the average gradient of the curve itself. In other words, it's practical (and convenient) to consider the speed point density to be equal to the curve gradient divided by some constant factor. You can get good results by using a factor number between about 7 and 10; temporarily, I'll suggest 8.5." Later on the page, he gives an example, "Because the "normal" average G is typically about 0.50, we'll apply the factor (8.5) to find a "standard IDmin" for this first average gradient measurement: 0.50 / 8.5 = 0.059, or 0.06." From the equation, a film with an average gradient of 0.50 has the approximate fractional gradient speed point at the the density point of 0.06.

My first reaction is why not use the Delta-X equation?
1737914932886.png


ΔD is easy to determine and the equation gives a fairly close approximation under all conditions to the fractional gradient speed point. A speed value can then be determined using a constant with either relative or actual log-H. The question with Davis method is how approximate is it and under what conditions is it more and less accurate? The fraction gradient method itself is a sensitometric approximation to the print-judgement speeds from the psychophysical first excellent print tests. Here is a comparison of various sensitometric methods of determining speed as compared to the print-judgement speeds. For me, even if Davis' method satisfactorily relates to the fractional gradient or ΔX method, unless you do a comparison between its results with the other methods, it's an unknown variable.

1737915965833.png


As far as I remember, the BTZS program is only able to do relative log-H.

Producing a curve is just the first step. The important part is how it is interpreted, and I believe the above speed discussion is a good example of how involved it can be. Understanding flare is critical in determining a development model. Determining an accurate LER is also important. This is where most mistakes are made and is something that can be discussed later.

Stephen
 
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Bill Burk

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As a thought experiment I drew a set of graphs in the same style. I imagined what Zone System and Nikon Matrix would look like if the study included those methods.

The idea I wanted to show is how well those two methods “nail the exposure”.

I wanted to show Zone System is skewed about 2/3 to one stop towards greater exposure (hence most ZS tests find speed half of rated speed). In a similar vein I wanted to illustrate Nikon nails it pretty much every time.

I emphasize this is not real data, just an imaginary illustration.

IMG_8045.jpeg
 
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Implementing sensitometric testing and process calibration is undoubtedly beneficial for a lab. However, customer's reactions can be unpredictable and the best intensions can unexpectedly backfire. One option I proposed to potential customers was to provide them with a sensitometric test to process however they currently prefer, home processing or another lab, and we would then match the processing. We would effectively create a personal normal for them. Additionally, we offered to tailor our processing based on a printing method such as diffusion, condenser, or an alternative process. Despite this, few customers took advantage of the offer. Nevertheless, I believe offering customized processing was a valuable selling point.

On the other hand, many customers reacted to some of our attempted services with suspicion and indignation. For instance, I proposed distinguishing between pushing for contrast and correcting for overrating the film—pushing for speed or contrast. This idea was met with resistance, and we likely lost some customers as a result. In another instance, a photographer's assistant tried to have me fired after I mentioned that I was conducting some testing and would have updated numbers for the film type they shot. The assistant told the owner they didn't want anyone experimenting with their film. I found customer responses often correlated with their level of knowledge and ego. It seemed the larger a photographer's ego and temper, the less technical knowledge they possessed.

Some photographers appreciated our approach, while others preferred a lab with a more mystical air about them. There was a lab in New York City that kept their developing techniques secret, refusing to disclose their developers or if they used different ones. They would take the film and not return it for a few days, claiming it took time to work their magic. This lab was particularly popular with fashion / art photographers. I suspect they simply clipped the film and used inspection processing.

At one point, Kodak conducted a survey of numerous labs by sending two rolls each of five emulsions: one for normal processing and the other for +2 processing. The results were highly variable, with some of the best known labs being the most inconsistent. Yet it didn't seem to matter to anyone. Probably the best advice is to be judicial with how you market your process.
 
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The BTZS methods were/are based on sensitometric standards that emphasized not only the mathematical processes but far more importantly, the understanding of the relationship between the camera (meter, shutter speed, aperture accuracy), the film (age, manufacturing variations, storage issues) and the development (concentration, age of the solutions, oxidation issues, water types, agitation methods) process. The workshops I did with him and the products we developed worked more with consistency of process and film testing. Workshop film testing itself usually only lasted 4-8 hours depending on the number of students we had. Paper testing was even faster. It is simple to characterize the film so that variations in metering (often more than 1 stop) and other processes could be easily found. It was VERY OFTEN the case that the film test results would be done only to find these types of variations. Watching students mix chemicals with varying degrees of precision, metering of shadows using different definitions of "detail" was always an interesting experience. Note that paper testing was a bit simpler due to the light source and testing methods and as long as the developer was fresh, results were consistent.

Dinners with the attendees would always include long discussions about the number of variables in photography and the flexibility of the materials which either overcame or masked these variations. While Phil was an accomplished commercial photographer, his interests were more in teaching and understanding the tools he was given. We were working on a new developer at one point and hours would be spent in both our darkrooms working on variations in agitation, modification of the active agents to see what the effect was on the film curve and the final test images. He was more in the "realist" camp than the "interpretive" camp IMHO. My test images were often landscapes while his were of his cat in a window where there was a large SBR. Getting caught up in the math beyond what is in the book is fun for those of us who are engineers or chemists but for most photographers, Phil's goal was to remove the soft science behind the Zone System, characterize and document it so that you could go out and photograph with as few variables as possible. He used few fluffy art terms in his writing and teaching and concentrated on the materials and processes.
 
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