Simple pin registration

[NedL]

I'm a long way from trying this yet, but I'm interested in making an oil pigment print.
I'm going to try it with AFC instead of a dichromate, like the "direct carbon" section of the "Chiba" system.
Am going to start getting supplies together when I'm making an order from B&S anyway, so maybe next year.
All I really need is some AFC and some pigment.

Anyway, I was reading this page about gum printing, and he talks about a couple interesting ideas.
The first is just using map pins for simple registration. I get the idea, but for people who have done this, is there a best way to pick the placement for the two holes?
If both of the holes were on one side of the paper, maybe you could register the negative and the print, then close 1/2 of the split-back frame to lock it in place, then remove the pins and close the other side? Is that too simple to work? It sounds too easy to be true.

The other question about registration seems much harder. He mentions creating 3 different paper negatives ( soft, medium, hard ) and that seems like it might be a really good idea for oil pigment too, with multiple layers of gelatin and pigment. But how in the world would you get the different negatives in registration? Especially with a paper negative where it would be hard to see even on a good light box! The only idea I've come up with would be to put "pin marks" on the inter-positive, and use those for alignment.... maybe that would work....

thoughts?

 

[gone]

I've never printed what you are going to do, but I've done a lot of fine art printing. You simply need holes in the four corners of your paper (or at least the top 2 corners) for registration. This video below is for screen printing, a process that often uses photographic techniques as well as stencil and half tone printing. It might help you to visualize how things can be properly registered in at least this type of art.The Part II video gives you a good overview. I have absolutely no affiliation w/ this company, but simply picked it because it has a great video, and the guy does a good job of explaining how things work.

Dead Link Removed

This is also a neat idea for another way to register multiple pieces of paper

http://www.printartsnw.org/edu/Registration System.pdf

Any way that works for you, and consistently holds things in proper registration, is fine. I prefer the T bar registration method as it is very accurate and does not require making holes in your paper. It's the second method here, about halfway down the page below. Might not work for what you have in mind, but it's helpful to know. If you look at the links on the left, you could spend the rest of your life in there, so be careful! I've been dying to learn photo gravure, but don't have access to an etching press right now.

http://introductiontoprintmaking.blogspot.com/p/an-overview-of-registration.html

 

[NedL]

The part two video was very interesting, and you're right that helped me visualize it much better. It also makes me think I could put three "targets" just like that on my inter-positive ( so that they print onto each negative ) and align just like he did. Thanks, that was very helpful.

Not to mention it was cool seeing those printing units. I wanted to see the final 4-color result!

 

[MrBrowning]

This isn't related to pin registration but the process. I wish you luck. I've been playing with both Gumoil and Oil prints. So far I haven't had much luck with ether. I hope you post your results. I'd be very interested to see them.

 

[NedL]

I can tell you from many years in the printing business dating back to the old days of the stripped negative (flat) and metal plate burning, that the methods you've described are not reliable. The first method allows "creep", and the second with the paper negatives is downright terrible.
Perhaps with some masking sheets like the printshops used to use with the negatives stripped in place; used with a punch and pin outfit would be the very best. Even then, registration occasionally disappoints. Certainly an old print shop's punch and pin outfit can be obtained? The bigger shops have long since gone to laser plate writers, and the little shops have gone to laserplates and copiers. That should free up a lot of punch and pin outfits, if they haven't already gone to the dump.

Ah! What your post tells me is that I have a lot to learn. I need to learn what a punch and pin outfit even is.
Lots more reading to do! Thanks, sometimes it can be hard to even make a start when you don't know what you don't know.

 

[NedL]

Thanks again.

The fatter pins and punch like that ebay link do remind me I've seen pictures of something similar for registering negatives in making masks. There is probably a good reason for using wider pins than "map pins". You found that link on Ebay quickly enough, it seems if I get into this I should be able to come up with something at a reasonable price.

 

[NedL]

....
This is also a neat idea for another way to register multiple pieces of paper

http://www.printartsnw.org/edu/Registration System.pdf

Any way that works for you, and consistently holds things in proper registration, is fine. I prefer the T bar registration method as it is very accurate and does not require making holes in your paper. It's the second method here, about halfway down the page below. Might not work for what you have in mind, but it's helpful to know. If you look at the links on the left, you could spend the rest of your life in there, so be careful! I've been dying to learn photo gravure, but don't have access to an etching press right now.

http://introductiontoprintmaking.blogspot.com/p/an-overview-of-registration.html

Thanks for adding those links. I've downloaded the pdf to read, it looks like a simple system but I need to read it to understand exactly how it works.

You're right I'm going to get lost in that second link. That's an amazing website.

 

[NedL]

Excellent, got it! And thanks very much to you and momus.

 

[chrisaisenbrey]

For double transfer carbon print I use needles and thumb tacks/drawing pins. It works relatively well for me.

I use needles to transfer holes from the negatives to the carbon/gelatin layer. Instead of a copy frame I use then a simple glass plate. To align the carbon/gelatin layer to the intermediate support I use drawing pins. I remove then the drawing pins after some minutes and squeeze the gelatin layer to the intermediate support for some more 30 min.

Those Ternes-Burton pins look quite interesting. I wonder if the have a reseller in Europe.

Just a warning: if work with paper you have to consider that it might shrink in water. So you have to find the right paper or do some pretreatment in hot water.

 

[ced]

I would try the easiest(I think) get hold of 2 of these office punches, they don't need to be new but of the same make...
https://leitzfashionshop.be/products/perforators/673778.html
Keep one to punch your negs and papers, the other strip out one of the punches and cut it down to about 4-5mm height 2 bits(obviously) and punch a very thin strip of flexible plastic/metal on the working punch.
and glue these bits into the strip. Now you have a punch system. The strip can be taped or glued to your contact frame making sure the pins go into a recess in the wood side of the contact frame or the glass will break.

 

[ced]

Just a thought, you might not need two punches just take one of the intended sheet binders an cut the bits from the ring clips in the binder(normally 2 in there).

 

[Bob Carnie]

Ned

I have not read through the replys but here is what I do for registration.. I am doing tri colour gum over palladium so there is 4 hits of light and 4 process.

I mount arches platine to 20 gage aluminum, this gage is punchable with a stossere register punch system
I place a film positive on a light table that has registration marks in it.
I tape the film positive to a stosser registration bar
I then place each negative on top of the positive and align the registration marks that are on the negative film as well.. When in register and looking down
on the films basically the image disapears.. once this happens I tape a registration tab to this negative
I then proceed with each negative until I am done.

Now I have four negatives all in exact registration with each other and I put the 20 gage aluminum mounted print through the steps of coating and process.

This thin aluminum will fit nicely in a NUark exposing unit and we use three separate short pins that come up from below the aluminum so we can place each
negative (in its turn) on top of the pins. When the vacumn is turned on the pins acutually sink into the rubber blanket and this allows perfect contact and registration.


I know this is a lot of info... but it really is the best way of register IMHO and stops the paper from shrinking with each wett.. I learned this method in the 80's as I
was a photocomp technician in a very large lab here in Toronto..

So very old tricks.... I will guess your next question is how do you make the registration marks on the film....Sorry due to APUG's charter I cannot tell you here how to do this
but you can and only you pm me off site.

I'm a long way from trying this yet, but I'm interested in making an oil pigment print.
I'm going to try it with AFC instead of a dichromate, like the "direct carbon" section of the "Chiba" system.
Am going to start getting supplies together when I'm making an order from B&S anyway, so maybe next year.
All I really need is some AFC and some pigment.

Anyway, I was reading this page about gum printing, and he talks about a couple interesting ideas.
The first is just using map pins for simple registration. I get the idea, but for people who have done this, is there a best way to pick the placement for the two holes?
If both of the holes were on one side of the paper, maybe you could register the negative and the print, then close 1/2 of the split-back frame to lock it in place, then remove the pins and close the other side? Is that too simple to work? It sounds too easy to be true.

The other question about registration seems much harder. He mentions creating 3 different paper negatives ( soft, medium, hard ) and that seems like it might be a really good idea for oil pigment too, with multiple layers of gelatin and pigment. But how in the world would you get the different negatives in registration? Especially with a paper negative where it would be hard to see even on a good light box! The only idea I've come up with would be to put "pin marks" on the inter-positive, and use those for alignment.... maybe that would work....

thoughts?

 

[NedL]

Bob, thanks for writing that. The process you described is similar to a professional print making registration system that momus pointed me to earlier in this thread. In that video, three targets were lined up and then the position was locked ( in a different way than taping the pins, but the principle is the same )

Since I envision making the negatives from an interpositive that I will also make, I'm pretty sure I can print targets onto the rebate of my work...the electrons I'll push around will be the ones on silver atoms....

Mounting to an aluminum sheet sounds like a superb idea. I was working with an 8x11 piece of vellum last week, that had already been through several wet then dry processes, and it was amazing to see it shrink almost 1/2" in dimension when it dried again.

Thanks again everyone, the experience here at APUG is a gold mine.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Ned
We are doing a video that will be released at some time showing this whole process.. as well my website will have simple tutorials showing some registration and printing methods we use here.
I am thinking by Christmas I will have all of this together.

We are having a four day workshop in Late December that goes over all of this, negmaking, register and coating multiple processes.



Yes if you can get the registration on your interpositive then when you separate out all the other negatives the marks will be in your rebate area and is really a piece
of cake to register all the films.

have fun.

Bob
QUOTE=NedL;1953759826]Bob, thanks for writing that. The process you described is similar to a professional print making registration system that momus pointed me to earlier in this thread. In that video, three targets were lined up and then the position was locked ( in a different way than taping the pins, but the principle is the same )

Since I envision making the negatives from an interpositive that I will also make, I'm pretty sure I can print targets onto the rebate of my work...the electrons I'll push around will be the ones on silver atoms....

Mounting to an aluminum sheet sounds like a superb idea. I was working with an 8x11 piece of vellum last week, that had already been through several wet then dry processes, and it was amazing to see it shrink almost 1/2" in dimension when it dried again.

Thanks again everyone, the experience here at APUG is a gold mine.[/QUOTE]

 

[DREW WILEY]

There's an awful lot of used registration gear out there if you know where to look - namely, under commercial printing gear rather than photographic supplies. If you need a new stripping bar matched to an older punch, Ternes Burton can make them at an affordable price. Accuracy of punching and registration is not something you want to compromise on. Bob is an expert on this stuff so listen to him. Just don't discuss anything related to hockey. He's Canadian, and you know how psycho they all go on that subject! I'll throw a pigment set at him one of these days just to keep the conversation going.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Drew

Sadly I am a Maple Leaf fan and we have had nothing to say since 1967.. I am even starting to like the look of a Hab's jersey.. that is how pitiful our team is.
But my Blue Jays are looking pretty good right now.

Actually thank you for the compliment about registration.. I have done a lot of very complex mask making and negative making in my time and
one of the key elements is a very good registration system like the Stosser system.. I used this system in the 80's for photo comp work, and was lucky enough a few years ago to find Sandy King in a weak mental moment and bought his Stosser system for a very good price I might add.

The OP can find the systems out there like you say on the used market, but buy quality, and make sure your exposing system has a rubber blanket to
allow the pins to sink in.

Blind Pig here on apug .. hate the name btw Don . is another expert in high quality registration and if I cannot answer he certainly can. He did amazing
complicated montage work in the 80's as well and I visited his studio in Kansas City and can verify he knows his stuff. He was very good at blending images without seams and kind a cross between Jerry Ullseman and Vanitey Fair covers.

Drew I await a pigment set from you.. transparent please with high archival rating.. I am using CMY and RGB and ochra.. at this point.

 

[DREW WILEY]

The trick is to find sample quantities of specific things. In terms of a balanced pigment set, I know what to do. In terms of something wildly
new, expect something with about a 1930's retro color look. Highly transparent, extremely permanent, and off, color-wise. Might be right up your alley. I just don't have any time for prototyping at the moment. Still trying to locate one key ingredient in non-industrial quantities.
When I want true color, as best as possible at least, I'll keep whittling at dye transfer printing. No time for that either right now. But I am
getting in the mood for something besides that, distinctly retro without looking artsy/craftsy.

 

[Bob Carnie]

I am open to your suggestions, we are using 8 pigments right now on top of palladium, I would be very open to any you can send to me.. one thing is I need to be able to buy them in bulk down the road if I really like what you have.
We are not trying for TRUE COLOUR so to speak. lots of wiggle room.
I will scan one we just finished and post it here if the photographer can give me the permission.

The trick is to find sample quantities of specific things. In terms of a balanced pigment set, I know what to do. In terms of something wildly
new, expect something with about a 1930's retro color look. Highly transparent, extremely permanent, and off, color-wise. Might be right up your alley. I just don't have any time for prototyping at the moment. Still trying to locate one key ingredient in non-industrial quantities.
When I want true color, as best as possible at least, I'll keep whittling at dye transfer printing. No time for that either right now. But I am
getting in the mood for something besides that, distinctly retro without looking artsy/craftsy.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Image courtesy of Monica Glitz.

So here are two images almost completed .. As you can see the paper is mounted onto aluminum and in one case three layers of colour, the vertical image
we have only placed two colours.
aluminum is 11 x14 for sake of scale.

 

[NedL]

seeing those targets is useful to OP too!
Beautiful work.

 

[DREW WILEY]

The problem I've got, Bob, is that what mfg of certain specified pigments mean by minimum quantity is very different than your definition.
They're thinking in tons. So getting samples or even affordable amounts means getting lucky with leftovers from a "real" customer. This often happens with respect to colorants and even optical coatings. But it does take a bit of patience. There's a different category of pigments I'd like to play with that does not have that issue. But one also has to buy these things pre-dispersed aqueous, not just powder. There's quite an art to dispersing them. Not like the old days. Whole different technologies involved. Won't show my hand on an public forum, however. I have enough registration gear to do my own prototyping, but would probably just fool around with 8x10 contact separations to get to first base. I assume you'll capitalize on the opportunity to supply enlarged digital negs to potential do-it-yourselfers, along with full printing services. There are a lot of ways to skin this cat in terms of pigment sets. I just want to go into some unexplored territory in that respect, but do have enough background in industrial pigments to at least speak their language, so have an idea what might
work and what might not. The problem is of course with contaminants which produce some undesired side-effect. That is exactly what has
spoiled some previous industrial attempts at reviving color carbon on any production-line scale. Gum is more forgiving; but where the heck
do you get consistent quantities of gum arabic these days?

 

[Bob Carnie]

Thanks Ned, glad to help by showing some workflow.

Drew- I am not sure I am going to go down the road of supplying enlarged digital negs for home use... The potential pitfalls are enormous.

I have about 1000 colour images I want to separate on the Lambda for my own purposes, as well the same amount or more BW negatives
that I want to duo tone on top of palladium.
My personal work and that of my wife Laura is enough for me to keep this image setter here and basically about three years of solid work. also I do have clients that
want to go down this route, with specific bodies of work.
I imagine I will get some estates, and contemporary photographers who decide to drink the koolaid wanting me to make archives of their work.
But right now I am concentrating on a very small window of opportunists that see this as an excellent way to print and archive their work.

I doubt I will make one offs for photographers, unless of course its a test run to see if they can make the film work in their own darkrooms then move to a more significant order ... That actually is the problem.. just because I can make it work here, does not immediately suggest another person can take the same film and make it work. For silver prints I think the answer will be yes, as it is a simple test to balance out to a specific starting grade and then go forward.

For alternative printmaking like what the OP is wanting to do , maybe not so easy as we may not have compatible workflows post negative creation and there may be some issues. This process will not be cheap as a roll of film 20 inch x 100 ft or 30inch x 100ft is over $1000 . There is a con tone film made for separation houses still running film that is 1/5 the price but I have not tested it on the Image Setter yet.

What I am seeing is a real throwback to over 200 years ago where a benefactor/sponsor will step in financially and want to help an estate/photographer with significant work move in this direction.
I also think an approach by significant contemporary photographers working in inkjet or RA4 will approach me to have their work made in this method.


time will tell, I am 62 years of age now, I feel I am still in my prime (printmaking) and I am teaching/mentoring a bunch of youngsters who have drank the koolaid and find it potent and want to continue.

I would be interested in any pigment info you have, right now we have no issues getting gum from many sources. Bostick and Sullivan in your neck of the woods would be my first line of resource. Right now we are buying all our pt pd components from them.. Our paper is Arches Platine from Canson and we are using the Daniel Smith line of pigments, only because there is an Art store right beside us stocking the stuff.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Also I should mention, that I have selected about 6 projects that I think are very worthy and have been sponsoring them with materials and my time, as well in some cases showcasing them in my gallery without charge.

This was a tough decision to make as I am not a wealthy business man (maybe because of above) but by doing this I feel that I am bringing forward very worthy work that may not be seen and also if they take off in the art market , well I will be right there with them and there is much satisfaction in that.

I feel strongly about what is left behind for future generations to see, and I hope this seemingly new wave of alt printers using hybrid workflow will be the reason work is seen as the artist wanted.

 

[blindpig]

Bob, thanks for the kind words,it's been a while since I've done close registration but interestingly have been considering some color carbon prints and dug out my old register punch.
Ned when you get closer to doing your registered prints let me know.Somewhere in my collection(wife calls it junk) I think I have a 4X5 two hole register punch.It was/is attached to a large plate but could be moved to a smaller backing. It will work for 4X5 and 5X7 easily and could probably work for 8X10 if care was taken.
I'd be willing to loan it and a couple of pins to you for testing before you invest in a punch system and would allow you to know through experience what system you'd like.The system I used for years consisted of a hole pattern of an oblong hole on both sides and a round hole in the center spaced so 4X5 up to 8X10 could be punched(we actually used the punch on film up to 20X24) .Of course the smaller sizes would only have two holes.Strips of estar film would be punched and then attached to the working negatives/positives as the case might be.Then the unexposed film would be punched and placed on the pins and the afore mentioned pos/negs would be placed over the pins and drawn down with vacuum or a heavy piece of plate glass would be placed over the sandwich for good contact while exposing.
Any how good luck with your experiments and let me know if I can help.
Don

 

[NedL]

Thanks Don, that is much appreciated, I'll PM you when I get closer.

This talk actually got me thinking more about it and I think I'll order the material sooner. I made a mistake in my original post, the process I am going to try is just a pigment gelatin print, but they are often printed in several layers. ( I was recently thinking that a similar process might actually work for oil pigment too, which is why I got them mixed up! So someday I might try an oil pigment print )

You might be interested in Dead Link Removed. I tried it a couple weeks ago and it works very well. I'm thinking of trying to use that kind of paper negative for this process.