The definitive word (I hope) on color stabilzers!

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Lachlan Young

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If what Lachlan said, "Formalin stabiliser won't hurt the new couplers" is true then if you feel safe using formalin stabilizer keep doing it. Or did I miss something?

It's irrelevant with most films less than 20 years old, and probably completely so with any less than 12 years old - and there is no good reason to needlessly expose yourself to Formaldehyde.

Let's not forget, that Formalin in the E-6 final rinse is a thing exclusively for 3 bath kits. AFAIK Kodak never produced such kits, and PE was strongly opposed to them. "Stabilizers in final rinse" are a thing exclusively for introductory amateur kits.

It was (at one time) in the official final rinses for colour neg (both still and cinema) and VNF positive film. The amateur 3-bath/ 2-bath kits used exactly the same stabiliser between them. Machine design and safety considerations will likely have played a role in putting the Formaldehyde in the pre-bleach for E-6.

To the best of my understanding, the chronology was C-41 in 1972, ECN-2 in 1974, VNF-1 in 1976 and E-6 the same year - though VNF-1 seems to be a modified high temp E-4 (with a PQ rather than MQ first developer).

Since the official E-6 process still uses Formaldehyde in the prebleach, it's extremely unlikely, that any E-6 material would not be able to handle Formalin in a stabilizer.

It's not in the current Fuji Pro 6 Pre-bleach either - the current safety sheet lists Edetic Acid and Thioglycerol as the main potentially hazardous ingredients, but not Sodium Formaldehyde Bisulphite.
 

Rudeofus

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It's not in the current Fuji Pro 6 Pre-bleach either - the current safety sheet lists Edetic Acid and Thioglycerol as the main potentially hazardous ingredients, but not Sodium Formaldehyde Bisulphite.

Fuji was - at times - very paranoid about their MSDS. I remember reading an MSDS for one of Fuji's rapid fixer concentrates, and the only ingredient listed was Ammonium Sulfite. I have no idea how they were able to leave out the thiosulfate and probably some other ingredients.

I also doubt, that Fuji's prebleach contained only EDTA free acid and Thioglycerol. This combo only by itself would not even dissolve in water ...
 

Rudeofus

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What are your grounds for claiming Formaldehyde is still being used in E6? So far, I haven't seen it MSDS listed in any E6 brand here in the US, and would be shocked if I did find it.

Presenting to the jury: Exhibit A. It's Cinestill's final rinse for C-41, but you know why it's relevant here.

Presenting to the jury: Exhibit B. SDS is from 2022, so not exactly outdated despite its rather arcane appearance.
 

Lachlan Young

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Fuji was - at times - very paranoid about their MSDS. I remember reading an MSDS for one of Fuji's rapid fixer concentrates, and the only ingredient listed was Ammonium Sulfite. I have no idea how they were able to leave out the thiosulfate and probably some other ingredients.

I also doubt, that Fuji's prebleach contained only EDTA free acid and Thioglycerol. This combo only by itself would not even dissolve in water ...

They only list the items that are genuinely hazardous/ allergens at the concentration used. I think it's pretty unquestionable that Formaldehyde would be listed.
 

DREW WILEY

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I couldn't find it on your link, Rudeofus. Please be more specific. And Fuji markets their products internationally. I wouldn't make much sense for them to be deceptive in one case, and risk suspicion in a far larger market. Anyway, the overwhelming risk of formaldehyde exposure is in plywood glue outgassing (hence most plywood is now mfg in China), as well as in the mortuary trade.
 

Rudeofus

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I couldn't find it on your link, Rudeofus.

If you look at the snippets "Exhibit A" and "Exhibit B" and hover over them with your mouse cursor, the link should become apparent. I just checked the links, they still work for me.
 

koraks

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I couldn't find it on your link, Rudeofus.

Took me about 3 minutes.

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the overwhelming risk of formaldehyde exposure is in plywood glue outgassing

We're talking about color stabilizers presently. No need to drag carpentry into it, or traffic accidents, people falling down flights of stairs and a whole host of other stuff.
 

Rudeofus

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We're talking about color stabilizers presently. No need to drag carpentry into it, or traffic accidents, people falling down flights of stairs and a whole host of other stuff.

Drew's reference to carpentry is more relevant than we may think. I saw a similar discussion about bichromate here on photrio "oh no it's a carcinogen, don't ever get near it!!!". Someone brought up, that it was used in leather tanning, that workers regularly moved the leather with their bare hands, and those were the people who eventually developed cancer or other health problems. As long as the bichromate stays in it's tray, as long as you use it sparingly and with care, there should not be much of a problem.

Now back to Formaldehyde, where we see the exact same pattern. People making plywood and people working in forensics or pathology are regularly exposed to high concentrations of Formaldehyde, and that's the populace which developed adverse health effects. You will not get cancer from wiping off a few rolls of film after final rinse before you hang it up for drying.

So yes, bichromate and Formaldehyde are proven carcinogens, but not in the concentrations and frequency of exposure we will likely experience with photographic processing at home or in dark rooms.
 

DREW WILEY

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Sorry, but it's none of you folks which determines the acceptable levels of any of these things. In this day and age, it's regulatory agencies. And those often look at the cumulative big picture. It depends on what their radar picks up, and whether they consider it worth their fuss or not. Sometimes there is just an outright blanket ban on something. Just in this single State of there is a patchwork of regulations which affect formaldehyde per se. Move the largest local film processing lab just a few blocks north of where it presently is, and you end up with an almost draconian jurisdiction when it comes to any kind of formaldehyde usage unless a special permit is obtained - something a giant biotech corp might be able to navigate, but certainly not a photo lab.

What's off topic about it, for heavens sake? Look at the demise of a particular Fuji E-6 emulsion recently due one tiny manufacturing ingredient. Analogously, someone picks up the term "formaldehyde" on an ingredient list in a developer, and suddenly that Euro product is going to be outright banned from distribution here, and in turn, perhaps banned there too. That's just how it works. And that fact alone would tell me to rely on an alternative brand not subject to that kind of potential disruption.

That fact is, not only are most of the still extant large processing labs in the US in highly regulated municipalities, but also the distribution houses we rely on for supplies. That means high hazmat shipping charges for certain things, as well as why, right around here, the few remaining labs have had to bounce from one city or county to another as local regulations tightened. Since these same areas saw extreme pollution from chemical plants and the military in former decades, they now tend to be outright draconian; and that's what I mean by "blanket" bans on certain things. They don't want to be bothered monitoring tiny amounts, so "zero" applies to everyone.
 
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Rudeofus

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Sorry, but it's none of you folks which determines the acceptable levels of any of these things. In this day and age, it's regulatory agencies. And those often look at the cumulative big picture. It depends on what their radar picks up, and whether they consider it worth their fuss or not. Sometimes there is just an outright blanket ban on something.

Yes, regulation is pretty random in many ways and still mandatory to follow to the letter, but the discussion goes beyond that. If a number of respected entities prohibit chemical compound X, then even in places outside their jurisdiction the question will arise "is it really safe to use products containing compound X?". This was the main reason for my explanation of the rationale behind legal status of bichromate and Formaldehyde. My explanation was aimed at people where these ingredients are still available. I can still buy Formalin 20% in liter bottles, and will continue to do so until it's either outlawed or I stop homebrewing E-6 chems.
 

DREW WILEY

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Of course, all kinds of compounds are still available from chemical supply houses in limited amounts for sake of research purposes or darkroom home brew. And there are all kinds of seemingly unfair exemptions, depending on the financial clout of the industry involved. But I have a bottle of 20% formalin on hand in the darkroom myself, though I seldom need to use it.
 
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Mick Fagan

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I'm still on a 500ml bottle of 37% Formaldehyde I opened in 1994, only ever used it for the final C41 bath. I use 1.5ml of Formaldehyde and 6ml of wetting agent for 500ml. It is nearly empty and I no longer am processing C41, but I just may do so one day.
 

BHuij

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...Analogously, someone picks up the term "formaldehyde" on an ingredient list in a developer, and suddenly that Euro product is going to be outright banned from distribution here, and in turn, perhaps banned there too. That's just how it works...

I was very surprised to find I could order 37% formalin on Amazon here in the US. No age restriction, no hazmat, nothing. Just arrived in a box. That's what I've been diluting in PhotoFlo and using to stabilize all my color films.
 

DREW WILEY

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There are all kinds of sources still off the radar. That doesn't make it legal. Monitoring varies. Once in awhile there's a sweep to make an example out of some blatant rogue distributor of this or that restricted item; and the cumulative fines can be staggering (for the seller, that is). I could cite concrete examples if necessary. Amazon is, of course, a giant network in need of much tighter monitoring of their subsidiary participants; that's no secret.
 
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DREW WILEY

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For cross-linking purposes, glyaxol is the preferred replacement to formalin. But it has limited shelf life.
 

lamerko

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I am not very convinced that there is any restriction on the sale of formalin. It is sold freely here, including in large quantities under all sorts of names - I recently saw 37% formaldehyde as a "soil improver". I have a liter bought from a specialist store for chemical reagents - there was no limit on the list. On the other hand, it is completely IMPOSSIBLE to buy triethanolamine (TEA), potassium permanganate, etc.
 

DREW WILEY

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Please don't infer that what applies to Bulgaria applies elsewhere. And conversely, it is easy to get TEA or potassium permanganate here in the US.
 
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